M31

If that's the case, then it doesent take a rocket scientist to wonder why ED broke the dual throttle capability for the Saitek X65-F from Lock On to Flaming Cliffs 2, and also DCS Black Shark? Why would they do that? to alienate current customers? If DCS A-10 ships with proper dual throttle support from the forthcoming TM Warthog, but ignores Saiteks X-65F ... We'll all smell a Rat. DCS should have patched their products for the X-65F by now, (They broke it) but with the forthcoming A-10 product in development ... I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Cheers. I've mentioned this before and am close to being banned for it:)

FSX ... IMHO was a flawed masterpeice, its a shame to think that this might be the last GA sim from MS ... you can say what you like about Bill Gates, but he always supported the MS FS series, now that he's gone its become quite evident what's happened in Microsoft, the Aces FS team fired, other folk like Aerosoft taking up the mantle, old MS teams getting together and going their own way ... We'll just have to wait and see, its still to early to say for sure ... But MS FSX still looks good, post release we have seen a multitude of add-ons, FSX has been transformed by third party developers

Just to clarify, you don't get all the planes from the store with the IC edition, I think its just a couple of extra ones over and above what folk like me paid from day one ... what you do get is an up to date version from the word go Rise of Flight, after a PC crash ... I had to patch mine up recently from my digital download and I was over 1GB to do that. Rise of Flight Iron Cross is a no brainer for those looking to get into the sim, especially the boxed version that has a map and other stuff.

It looks great, and as a PC HOTAS controller freak, its great to see TM back. However, my experiences of the post "original" Buzz Hoffman lead TM, to the French based company were bitter sweet ... I owned several TM HOTAS's before the Cougar, but in many ways the Coug was a big let down for me. For sure it looked fantastic on the outside, but the internals were very weak, poor pots, mis-allighned switches, the gimbal mechanism was very poor too, with several entrepreneurs making massive improvements ... Evenstrain, anyone? James Hallows Foxy software was awesome though. I've already got far too many PC HOTAS controllers, with the Saitek X65F being my most recent purchase ... But I'll be watching this space with interest.

Its fine if you can live without dual throttles working, but then again Force Sensing is not really suitable for DCS BS IMHO, for this I actually use an old (but still fine) Microsoft Force Feedback 2 USB stick along with a Saitek X-52 throttle and rudders. The X-65F dual throttle as of time of posting and fully patched up, does not work in DCS Black Shark or Lock On FC 2 (it works fine in the original Lock on) but you have to ask yourself, how often do you control each engine in Black shark? The stick works, but I find its much more suitable for fast jet sims. Of course you can lock the X-65F's throttle together and ask the sim to see one of its throttles ... but its hardly hardcore, is it :) Same as I wish DCS would recognise individual toe brakes for all the rudder pedals that support this now. This is much more of an issue in Lock On FC2 IMHO that simulates several twin engine Jets, its a real pity we cant use a dual throttle here, hopefully it will be patched, but from official responses so far ... I'm not holding my breath :) Again it will be interesting to see if DCS A-10 supports the X-65F and/or the TM Warthog in dual throttle ... I'd like to think it will support both and that FC2 and BS can be supported in dual throttle HOTAS whoever the brand name is too in future patch's. I think that's fair and be seen as constructive criticism and observations. Cheers.

You couldn't be more wrong :) I actually bought ROF on day one as a download, from the original product to the Iron Cross edition, its been a lot more than just one patch. ROF IC now includes all that has gradually been incorporated into the sim as improvements and maturity (and that is one heck of a lot) as well as least four extra flyable Aircraft ... to put things in perspective, ROF IC is bang up to date as a base install, recently after a computer crash I was forced to install ROF again from my original purchase and then do the update dance again, was about 1GB ... 1GB is a lot since this sim was released, its not bloat, but sheer refined evolution and its not finished yet. RoF has some of the best flight models ever incorporated into a PC Flight Sim ... these are good days we live in! We will soon have a brand new career mode, twin seaters and bombers, all useable in multiplay as well as offline. To put things in perspective, folk moan about ROF's DRM, but at least I dont have the worry of having to jump through hoops each activation like I do with Lock On FC2 and DCS BS, because I like to upgrade my PC (I'm a PC hardware enthusiast) and subsequent OS re-installs. I'm being punished by ED and having to use up precious activations because of that... I think I only have two left for BS now ... I realise I can get more, but its unnecessary begging and jumping through hoops, that as a legitimate owner I find awkward and just a bloody PITA ... to be honest. At least with RoF IC, its just a case of signing in, they keep all my stats too. I can even install RoF on one of my other high end PC's (of course only being allowed to log in once) for experimentation purposes (in my case ATI vs Nvidia and dual Core vs Quad) if I were to do that with anything from ED it would be a strike against my purchase :( NO ... You have it wrong, RoF and RoF IC edition is one of the rare Gems in PC Flight Simulation, you might not like the genre ( I love it) but the vision is there and so is the follow up to what will be ultimately seen as a PC Flight Sim classic.

Where does this stuff come from? What utter Rubbish! Here's my X65F unpacking, sorry its not so sinister, despite the military style boxing.

Really? I've been on ban warnings for expressing my concern the Saitek X-65F dual throttle does not work in Lock On FC 2 or DHS BS ... it works in the original Lock On, not in the new stuff. The X-65F is a nice bit of kit, but in all honesty, if the current military sims that support dual throttle cant get their act together by now, then I wont be buying any future military comp sims that support dual throttle too. Hardware or Software. Or maybe the forthcoming TM Warthog will be supported in dual axis throttle? and the X-65F wont? That would put the cat amongst the pigeons. I bought into the Lock on DCS hype early, I bought into it so much I bought a dual throttle X-65F, made comments here and am close to being banned for mentioning it more than once, it works in Lock On but not Lock On FC2 or DCS BS. My logic may be flawed, but DCS broke the dual throttle axis in DCS BS and Lock on FC2 for the X65F and they should fix it. The X65F works fine in original Lock On. I was threatened by a Mod here who told me I had no idea (I've still kept the PM's) despite the fact I was a Saitek beta tester. I'm a Sim enthusiast, spending loads of my disposable income on this minority subject ... I just want to see the best we can :(

All it would take, is for an official ED announcement, along the lines ... M31 and co are quite correct, we should have implemented toe brakes a long time ago, and our axis routine in new dual throttle controllers is Broken ... But we'll fix it, please bear with us.

Yeah, whatever ... I've been told to shut up.

Whining? What an attitude? You were one of the early guys who boasted about having an X-65, but was reluctant to post opinions, we know now why, because of the new BS and FC2 new axis routine, its not recognised. It simply does not work. Hence your silence. Tell me I'm a Liar when you hit the ban button, tell me I'm a LIAR. I have many clues ... I beta test hardware for Saitek. Now go ahead and ban me. Lets sweep this stuff under the carpet. Threats ... I've seen it all now :(

Getting some fundamental axis controls for modern Sim hardware for future airframes would be a good idea too. Twin throttle in modern HOTAS is lacking, individual toe brakes as supported in other sims and lots of current Rudder pedals is still lacking, we ar now straying into arcade territory ... not much point in having dual throtles if they can only be seen as one ... I honestly think ED just say, sod them, we wont do it to spite them ? ... Egos are massive everywhere and I'm sick fed up of dancing around them. It was stuff like this that killed off the last generation of hard core flight simmers. Please not lets go through that Papa Doc (Flight Sim hero) crap again, he talked for everyone, and in the end turned out to be a drunken bigoted Bum.

Edit: Double Post

I'm wasting my time. whatever.

Oh stop it .... How many Thrustmaster or Saitek G-Suit, Oxygen mask and ejection seat hardware purchases do you see out there? You are being absolutely silly now and your point is ludicrous and nonsensical. How many Dual Throttle HOTAS units are there out there now that are affordable, I see at least two with the forthcoming TM Warthog as well. Think about it, would it not be nice to have a Warthog HOTAS and a DCS Warthog sim that actually use both throttles ... the way you guys are going with low standards, we'll have less functionality ... is that the way of it? Not to mention ED's reluctance to implement toe brakes for an abundance of rudder pedals that now support this. I've had my say, if any more ED Fhanbouys want to stab me in the back to look good in front of your peers, go ahead ... at least ED now know their lack of support is in the Public domain and the ball is very firmly in THEIR court. Dont get me wrong ... check my post history ... I'm a big fan of ED, but they are far from perfect and the two fundamental flaws in hardware axis support since Lockon are howling errors that need to be sorted, not just for BS and FC2, but future sims from ED too ... Hard core Combat sim is making a revival, lets keep it going fwd please, we do not need simplification in area's like this, especially when the hardware HOTAS market has never been better. Cheers.

Anyway ... back on topic. DCS Twin engined fighter jet ... but only if it allows current dual throttle HOTAS controllers to use both engines ... PS toe brakes are long overdue too :music_whistling:

Another call from the lets sweep it under the carpet I'm OK Jack, crowd :( This could have all passed as a casual comment, but for ED Fhanboy intervention. God forbid you ever have a genuine gripe, because I and others will be on your tail dismissing it instantly. I'm a damn ED Customer and my moneys is as good as yours and I WILL NOT BE SHUT UP!!!! TY.

I know ... I'm Hot headed, but after reading the Forums since I bought FC2 and BS ... I just knew I'd have a run in with that regular Joey guy and others, and they would settle on the side that suits them. Grrrrrrrr My (at first suggestions) now complaints are legitimate, ED changed the axis software routine from the old Lockon (that works perfectly in dual throttle, as does other sims) to something that does NOT work in BS and FC2 now? They actually changed something that worked to something that does not ... WTF? Whats the bloody point of having a dual throttle HOTAS, if the main sims you aim it at wont support it? Or worse, what's the damn point in a new dual throttle HOTAS that worked fine in LOCKON, works fine in all other sims, but does NOT work properly in the new axis routines introduced in BS and FC2 ... and in all likely-hood, DCS Warthog until we get it sorted? Thats the current Status Quo, and it Sucks. In corespendance (and I'm Saiteks biggest critic) its ED that are being awkward and dragging heels here. Go Figure? ... this is the same company that years ago, ignored my plea's for them to implement toe brakes in Lockon ... still all these years on, after much more requests and actual physical pedals here there and everywhere for years now that now support this feature, the company that prides its self on detail are still ignoring or sweeping under the carpet basic important details such as this, and again on basic controller axis provision, so what chance they fix the dual throttle issue :( So the only avenue after all other support channels fail, Saitek and ED passing the Buck, hence why ... I post here. OK, I'll be banned soon. The ED Fan Buoys want only gushing praise here it seems.

I know ... I'm Hot headed, but after reading the Forums since I bought FC2 and BS ... I just knew I'd have a run in with that regular Joey Guy and others, and they would settle on the side that suits them. Grrrrrrrr My (at first suggestions) now complaints are legitimate, ED changed the axis software routine from the old Lockon (that works perfectly in dual throttle, as does other sims) to something that does NOT work in BS and FC2 now? Whats the bloody point of having a dual throttle HOTAS, if the main sims you aim it at wont support it? Go Figure? ... this is the same company that years ago, ignored my plea's for them them to implement toe brakes in Lockon ... still all these years on, ignored? So the only avenue after all other support channels fail, Saitek and ED passing the Buck ... I post here. I'll be banned soon. Come on be optimistic the Warthog A10 split throttle is coming and I think I might get that one so hope it gets fixed and fast...

And there was NO mention on the issue I've bought up. What were ED Doing that could have helped this thread? STOP IT Stop putting ED on a pedestal or there is absolutely no point in complaining ... God Forbid ... Moving forward. Some folks do have Issues with ED products, the Likely lads chiming up saying I'm Cool, or its all nice for me are just basic Grovellers ... Sorry. I've seen some of you guys get way overprotective on ED on issues that might effect you in the future, but too dumb slow to wake up on matters that count. Its Funny. ED would like the negative side of things silenced, so would some of the minions here too.

Thanks for breaking the silence from ED's side, Saitek were open and honest to us from the start about this.

And I hope you never have any issues, because if you do, you can be sure some smart alec will be along to dismiss them, saying how they are optimistic and constructive. To be constructive you sometimes need to stop bowing down, and say look Here, something needs to be done about this. I've went through the proper channels on both sides and quite frankly I'm fed up of jumping through hoops and being passed from pillar to post, after that this stuff spills onto the forums and upsets guys like you. What can I say? EDIT ... as a foot note and clarification, the X-65F dual throttle works fine in all sims including the original Lock On, Its Black Shark and Flaming Cliffs 2 new software axis routine that is Fubar ... If ED would just say, yes it will be fixed in the next patch, that would be my wish for this wish list thread, contrary to what you may think - I do have vast reserves of patience and would wait for this, but being ignored and being kept in the dark is just a bit too much ... or if they cant or wont remedy this as you suggest, then please just say so too. Would save a lot of grief.

I cant believe you are so submissive?

Edit by Panzertard: Thread and content has been split out from "DCS wishlist". All replies should be considered as replies to an offtopic debate that started there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hope they fix the BASIC dual throttle axis controller problem with BS and FC2 in the Saitek X-65F before other Top Notch stuff. The Dual Throttle still does not work in BS or FC2 properly, it works fine in Lock On and other sims that use a dual throttle though. I've talked to Saitek and ED, its ED that are seeming to be awkward and dragging heels in this case :( ED are not the Holy Grail. If twin throttle works in Lock On (and it does) it should work in BS and FC2 too, it does not :( The worst part is the secrecy, WTF???? its as if us Customers don't count any-more? Were the last to know about major Bug fixes like this ... and we should be as paying people, be amongst the first to know. One things for sure, this axis/slider fault is in ED's area ... hope they patch it soon. The Full Sim HQ review is out any day now, they are bound to highlight this problem too?

I think Wags is letting us down gently, its not going to be a DCS Tornado sim because of this? But what about that wonderful stuff from the early Hard Core era, as in DI's Tornado? It was Hardcore ... did they have access to Panavia Tornado's capability's ... Nope, did it stop DI, 15 years ago making the ultimate mud mover sim ... No. Most of it was guesswork, but near as dammit guesswork And that worked splendidly. I mean ... who's Counting? ED could make a killer Tornado sim, but they wont, they know where the bread is buttered and we know what to expect. But Hey ... lets get that Warthog sim released first. Cheers.