GUFA

Completely forgot about about Achille Lauro Hijacking. I read a a fair bit of the article and couldn't help but feel that it came across as a b grade comedy (no offence intended). anyway thanks

Do tell

Dont be ridiculous, you dont hang weapons off a aircraft to not destroy the enemy. Italy simply had different CONOPs to Germany unsuprising given the geographical and political differences of the 2. You dont need a gun if you are hunting Bombers, Missiles, Recon, Electronic Warfare or Transport aircraft. I'd say you are also mis-interpreting or misrepresenting what some have said regarding what (some pilots) have reported (pre 73). And BTW the Autotecnics F15 NASARR radar was a far cry from the 'Fabbrica Italiana Apparecchiatture Radoielettriche' (FIAR) R21G/M1 updates that were PD with Lookdown ShootDown capabilities, quite capable of guiding Aspide. Infact FIAR developed this base radar into the "Grifo", 'Small nosed fighter Radars' So again tell the truth. I can think of nothing better than using Gunless Starfighters in theItalian Alps to Mask my movements and ambushing REDFOR in Hit and Run attacks, Using ground clutter to escape. Or Interdicting Anti Ship missile strikes on Italian Navy units operating in the Adriatic/ Mediterranean south of Malta. Or just just using Starfighter "S" to defend Italian Homeland assets against Land Attack Cruise Missiles...

He he he

No its called living in REALITY, Read the report that Bozon Provided. The author points out in cold hard numbers that after Vietnam March 29, 1973 & the end of Yom Kippur 25 October 1973 Gun Kills as a proportion of total numbers fell to stastically insignicant levels, period. No BS Fantasy, no manipulation, Just FACTS. Again How many after 73?, Now tell the TRUTH LOLZ. Really how completely incapable are you at understanding that the AIM 7 Sparrow Missile is a BVR class weapon, IE they can hit target beyond what human eyes can see (about 9000 metres). Yeah not like any other factor like the FACT that they were UNWEILDY PIGS IN A TURNING FIGHT, THAT LOST ENERGY FAR TOO EASILY+ REGAINED ENERGY WAY TOO SLOWLY + the fact that they had poor situational awareness even though they carried a second set of eyes... + The POLITICAL requirement to PID the targets was manner from heaven for VPAF. Really??? the Italian Government and the Aeronautica Militare didn't seem to think so... F-104 first flight: 4/4/54 F-4 First Flight:27/4/58 So what Iraqi insurgent used hide 14.7mm Kords in the back of Technicals, wait for US Apaches and when they had the helis dead to rights, gave a few Army Aviators a very bad day. But Army adapted & Prevailed... The 25mm GAU 12 Equilizer, as apposed Vulcan is a compromise solution to bridge between Vulcan & the 30mm Avenger and is only installed permanently on 'A' model Lightnings. And if a Gun is to remain a air to air weapon, it sure as hell is not going to be chemical. Look up. Laser Advancements for Next-generation Compact Environments. Self-protect High Energy Laser Demonstrator.

Would be interesting to find out how Fire Setter on the ASA perfomed relative to the stock model.

No not a drop Italian blood but worked along side, have had good friends in the Aussie Italian comunity, particularly from SW Western Australia.Just a good old Aussie Ranga And yes I was joking with the ring 1800 quip. These are the key takeaways that I found compelling On page 16 the author comments Between January 1970 and the beginning of the Yom Kippur War in October 1973, the IAF claimed 112 victories. Forty of these were credited to missiles and sixty-five to guns. The thirteen Arab victory claims were all credited to missiles. The big shift came during the Yom Kippur War when the IAF scored seventy-nine of its 164 claimed victories with missiles and only eighty-three with guns. By the close of the decade, the IAF claimed an additional six- teen kills—eleven credited to missiles and only three to guns. This Graph show the dispersion of kills between 65-2002: As Bozon points out Yom Kippur was probably a major contribution to those gun kill numbers 1970-80 holding up. Notice the rear aspect AAM line in red. Thats probably a hefty addition from Shafrir 2. Also this comment from page 24 . Taking a longer perspective, the data shows the continued utility of guns in aerial combat through the 1970s and their rapid eclipse by missiles beginning in the 1980s.38 In fact, the use of guns in aerial combat virtually ended after the Yom Kippur War in late 1973. Out of 498 victory claims since that time, 440 (88 percent) have been credited to AAMs and only thirty to guns.39 The last gun kill of one jet combat aircraft by another occurred in May of 1988 when an Iranian F-4E downed an Iraqi Su-22M with 20 mm cannon fire. also this observation from page 22: The first thing to note is that aerial combat was still quite common during the 1980s. The ongoing conflict between Israel and Syria over Lebanon and the Falkland Islands War are widely known examples. The bulk of claimed victories, however, stem from the long and bitter Iran-Iraq War that raged for most of the decade.34 There are relatively few good sources on the 34 During the Iran-Iraq War there were 290 confirmed aerial victories on both sides. 22 CSBA | TRENDS IN AIR-TO-AIR COMBAT aerial dimension of this conflict, but those that exist indicate that the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) succeeded in maintaining a significant number of the F-4, F-5, and F-14 fighters it received from the United States during the 1970s in working order. Their crews, all trained in the United States, were credited with over two hundred aerial victories including sixty-two kills by F-14 crews using AIM-54 Phoenix missiles.35 The second noteworthy aspect of 1980s aerial combat is the massive decline in gun use. During the 1970s over two hundred aerial victories were credited to guns, but during the 1980s the total declined to just twenty-six (an 87 percent decline). This was accompanied by a similarly large increase in the proportion of victories credited to all aspect missiles (including the AIM-9L) and true BVR missiles such as the AIM-54 and improved versions of the AIM-7. Finally there is table showing the improvement in performance of AIM-9 & AIM-7 from Rolling Thunder 65 to Desert Storm So guns are fun, but after Yom Kippur increasingly Irrelevent to the Air to Air Fight, FACT. But were meant to use "Gunfighter: Starfighter in scenarios up to three decades later... Anyway good read suggest everyone reads it.

Is that before or after they RUD

Stackup made the assumption I was Italian, and his assumption was wrong I get you are upset that I am making a robust case for inclusion for the "S", Ring 1800 "FEEL BETTER"

Tell me do you really think tha F-104g with rear aspect Sidewinder and guns are going to do the lions share of Counter Air over the Finnmark Central Europe or the Sea of Japan? Come on lets be truthful in the 60s-mid-late 70s thats a job for USAF Phantoms, Forward Deployed to Bodo, Evenes or Bardufoss and later CONUS based F-15 units. leaving the F-104g availble for strike. And you really think Yugoslavia is going to block REDAIR from hitting the South European theater? Or Gaddafi would not of offered forces or basing in the event of a Hot war?

Isn't that your bad... I'm pretty sure adding/subtracting (mostly weapons) to the existing module shouldn't be that hard. And Spain ordered French builds with minor changes (Sidewinder). So there wasn't a specific "Spain" Variant, they even bought some from Qatar. Since when does any company go around flipping the bird at its customers, iI mean thats a VEAO trick isn't it And having a Charlie Model would be welcomed by me

Did you ever think that I am not Italian? or have centre European ancestry for that matter? Notice you didn't even take into consideration about using the "S" in a User designed scenario/story!!! (even an a Alt history Indo-china, Taiwan, Indo-Pak AD infinitem) I can guarantee you I have. "MY Country probably has more to do Vietnam war than many others on this thread. (Hint: I'm born & bred in an ANZUS country...) So what, Aerges is already doing non Spanish variants of the F-1... Yet as an aspiring mission maker Aerges puts a limit on what I can do with my creation because "Spain didn't fly it".

In Addendum: The SUU-23 gun pod that F-4s carried was not particully effective for A to A being quite inaccurate, but were mainly used for ground attack.

For a start I not mad because I choose to point out that some customers are not getting a fair shake as regards the exclusion of the "S" model Starfighter. What is wrong with pointing out that. A.Apart from the UK, Italian Starfighters actually had to carry out intercept ("Air Superiority") missions, the rest of Western Europe didn't. (Thank you USAF F-4!!!) B. Gun Kills are considerably fewer "Post Vietnam" so you are effectively ignoring 30 years of service of the F-104 and the history of Air Warfare. I would actually like to design missions around the "S" Model and Sparrow. C.In a couple of years We could very well be faced with a REDFOR Module list of Sukhoi 11 & 15, Mig 23 & 25 + Shenyang J-8 up against one(1) US BVR Fighter design for the mid 60s- to Mid 70s. For me having a exellent affordable US alternative to the Phantom at least add a interesting choice for countless Multiplayer scenarioS gameplay. I suspect I'm not alone... Sorry cant see the Exclusion of the "S" as being completely parochial on Aerges part, and it isn't like they couldn't do the "S" now is it? So for the sake of Italian, Turk & many other DCS fans "Do it Right and add the S".

So how many A to A gun kills have been recorded since Vietnam? From Gulf of Sidra,El Dorado Canyon, The Iraq and Yugoslavic conflicts??? Answer: Bugger All: 2 credited to A10s in 91, And in Desert Storm F-15 Eagles absolutley reaped with AIM 7 Sparrows over Sidewinders & guns. I did not find any data to support widespread gun kill statistics in 1982 Bekaa Valley. The only comment stated that most kills went to F-15 and F-16s. (sure as hell does not support the Gun kill argument now does it?) Looked at the 1979 Sino-Vietnam war in hopes of finding significant "gun kills", but found no data what so ever on any of the A to A that occured. The only Data I could find to support decent "Gun Kill numbers" was the 1980 Iran-Iraq war. Even then Numbers show that Gun kills were mainly recorded against helicopter and other slow moving & manoever poor aircraft. IRIAF F-14 Kill Data of the conflict records 1 Gun Kill. And that 1 kill is statically insignificant against the list of (possibly) 50+ kills credited to the Tomcat's missiles. So your whole argument that the the Gun is neccesary (for A to A) becomes quite shaky post Vietnam and completely unsupportable after El Dorado Canyon. I dont know about you but I would like my Starfighter to remain useful into later life not just a 60s gunfighter! BTW all these people Bitching about a gunless F-104's, How are you going to handle flying RAF/USN F4s?

Brem was there any issues with scraping the catwinders? They always struck me has a dodgey setup

I makes me laugh that you think guns were, even then that important, just how long does a standard load last through a Vulcan when your "Turning & Burning"? BVR= Beyond visual range, meaning if you cant see it (with eyeballs) but the radar is tracking it then a Sparrow can hit it rain,hail or shine. As long as its reliable and the target isn't notching. The later Monopulse guidance models were better+ As Vietnam was the Sparrows only real combat period and US forces ROE (of the time) insisted upon PID and this also contributed the Sparrows bad rap. Remember all US 4 Gens used Sparrow... C'mon Aerges DO IT RIGHT and do an "S"

More my speed

As a add on for the Map and PC-9 what about an Aussie asset pack with unique units: Air: F-111C DHC 5 Caribou Dh-82 Tiger Moth CAC Boomerang Sea : Oberon Class Attack Class Patrol boat Armidale Class Patrol boat ANZAC Class FFH Incat Fast Transport HMAS Jervis Bay HMAS Kanimbla Land: Sentinel Tank M-113 FSV Perientie Long range Patrol vehicle Bushmaster PMV Hawkei PMV(L) Now I could of gone on... So how about it Check Six, Aussie Oi Oi

I really do hope that a Mi-2 URP-G is done by somebody at least. But I do think PC are the team that will do it best. +1

One thing that DCS really needs to do is get many more AI assets into the game whether they be air/sea/land/civilian. I simply dont understand how ED releases a map, say Persian Gulf and they don't release any of the local assets for it. How about some King Airs, CN 235s and EADS Panther helicopters to add some UAE aircraft to the lineup. Start them of as AI then develop (some) to FF. Another thing that grinds my gears is 'Role Balancing' between the FF modules. So we have the Chinook in development, so WHY is there no OPFOR counter being planed such as the big MIL helis. Surely a Mil 6 Hook is required "Poste Haste".

So is this the tease Man feel like I'm being edged

Honestly need a 'multi-preference' voting system Also would like to see a few more options on the list: Cessna OA-37 Dragonfly Pilatus (Fairchild) Porter Fairchild C-123 Provider Fairchild C-119 Flying Boxcar Piasecki H-21 Sikorsky H-19 Chikasaw Sikorsky H-34 Seahorse/Chocktaw Bell Iroquois UH-1B PS: Really would like a Cessna 337 but the Rhodesian "Lynx" AF variant.

100% agree with all suggestion above, here's my additions to the list: Air: All support aircraft from pre-war to present day. For example P-3 Orion/Il-38/Atlantique MPA. All C-135, RC-12 Guardrail, Grumman OV-1 Mohawk and any OPFOR equivalents. Or for WW2 how about Westland Lysander, Fieseler Fi 156 Storch. Sea: Would really like to sea some minor warships in the game. I would also like the ability to assign fighting men able to carrying SAMs in mission designer that are operable Would also like some amphibious ships such as LCVP/LCU/LCM/LST's. I am aware of the Mods available but more is always better. Ground: Well just to give you some inspiration: M-1 120mm AA M-2/3 80mm Maxson Quad 'Towed' M-167 'Towed' Oerlikon GDF 37mm 'Towed' And Some SAMs for BlueFor: Hint: a version is already in game Atilgan M-113 conversion And an old favourite of mine (+Already in game in towed form) M-727 Hawk Anyways just chucking it out there... PS: Forgot this badboy:

Really is a Shame that we will have 2 maps of pretty much the same area (Syria +Sinai) and the same time. But no WW2 or Libya, Chad, ED needs to do better and "no"more map doubles (S+S).