StreakerSix

Yes those things do happen, however, I watched this entire documentary a while ago, if memory serves, none of the airframes went down. If this had been a DCS re-enactment ALL of the airframes would go down to engine failure and/or tail rotors being shot off. Seeing as it is an AI issue and not a damage model issue (in your words) then the damage model needs to reflect as such until the AI can be corrected or else the game gives a less "realistic feel".

I'm fairly certain you haven't read my original posts in this thread, all those claims I have made are cited and stated in there, to include my testing with nothing but 4 AK-47 and 2 12.7mm weapons shooting at them. Yes, they will all be slightly different, however, one CAN NOT deny that a Huey has almost the same TTK as the Blackshark and Apache.... That right there should show you just how unrealistic the damage models are for these two Helicopters, especially seeing as this is a simulator and not a game (at least how I am understanding your statement). As far as the DAMAGE MODEL goes: The Huey feels-Realistic. The Hind feels-Realistic. The Hip feels-Borderline too strong but still mostly realistic. Recent changes to the Gazelle (So one does not revert to thought processes of the original)feels- Borderline too strong but still mostly realistic. The Blackshark feels- Unrealistic. (I didn't test it but I bet the Hip can take more damage) as the TTK probably falls somewhere in between the Huey and Hip. The Apache feels- Unrealistic. (I didn't test it but I bet the Hip can take more damage) as the TTK probably falls somewhere in between the Huey and Hip. I am not here bashing devs or criticizing anyone, I am just pointing out the obvious tweaks that need to be made for a more realistic "feel". Yes, the feel for realism is based on perspective, if it doesn't SEEM real it takes away from the overall satisfaction of the "simulation", then it truly does become just a game. Just remember also, there is a fine line between realism and what is fun when it comes to games, and it is not fun to me to be shot down in an Armored Attack helicopter just about as easily as being shot down in an Unarmored Utility Helicopter.

What is the Ka-50's excuse then? lol It's been around for almost a decade, right? As for the Hind handling too much, I believe that is incorrect as per what a person would "think" it can handle for damage, and from reading about them they the damage model seems realistic. It is the Ka-50 and AH-64D that do not "seem" realistic as all three are touted to withstand the same amount of damage IRL. People need to remember this is a game that is simulating real world aspects, therefore it is more what a person "perceives" certain airframes can do or handle for damage (based on actual events and/or manufacturers claims/specs). With that being said, my perception is the Hind has a believable damage model as the Ka-50 and AH-64D do not. Yes, I am aware the AH-64 and Mi-24 are in early access yet as are all of the modules in reality, as all of them have major updates to improve them constantly. These are just my thoughts on what can and should be improved upon in future updates.

Yep, this is the entire basis of my concerns with the damage models of the Blackshark and Apache... They barely take more damage than a Huey before being taken down and take the same if not less than a Hip (Probably less, I didn't add the Hip to testing) and definitely nowhere near a Hind... In which, by reading specs and claims by the manufacturers, the Hind, Apache and Blackshark should all be fairly comparable to each other in the amount of damage they can take before becoming unflyable/crashing.

I'm going to keep this rather short... I love that ED is working to get this Core Game Function up to par and we can get rid of SRS, however, sometimes game developers need to use the good old acronym K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple St****). As the keybindings go for a good majority of players, have one (1) PTT button, one (1) Radio Select Up, one (1) Radio Select Down (in VoiceChat options). Everything else can be keybound for each individual aircraft for those that have the sim-pits with all the buttons and dials for immersion sake (Not a dig on those that do, they are incredibly cool). But seriously, just simplify the use if you expect people to switch over from SRS. Hope this helps the Devs in charge of making the Voice Comms come to life!

I'd like to see the identical test done with the Mi-24 and the Ah-64D. I'm guessing the Mi-24 flies around until the ground units run out of ammo after about 5 minutes. The AH-64D loses it's tail rotor (or complete tail boom) on the first or second pass. Those are just my guesses, I could be completely wrong though.

Apache and/or BS would never take this amount of punishment in either SP or MP. Just another example of the large imbalance between AH-64/Ka-50 compared to the Mi-24 in DCS.

Yes and no... The Ka-50 pilot gets sniped from head on a majority of the time and the main reason for the Apache is the tail boom and/or rotor. Does the Hind have some sort of mystical tail boom that only breaks 5% of the time a rocket hits it or takes 500 7.62 minigun rds and/or an inset and armored tail rotor that is more hidden than the Apache? I stick to my guns saying they should be WAY closer in damage models. Regardless, I'm going to play the game and enjoy it with or without having actual legitimate feeling Attack Helicopters. I sincerely thank you for all your time on this matter. I think we've both spent enough time presenting our view points.

BS3 is basically just an updated graphics pass to include more animations.... A couple new systems and upgrades also, otherwise pretty much the same as the BS2.

Okay, so when does the Hind damage model get NERF'ed down to that of a Utility Helicopter like the others? Seeing as the two others are so extraordinarily accurate as is.

Forgot to reply to this... If you watch my video you can see I almost immediately pull back on the cyclic and there was little to no affect. Lose probably does not imply sawed off like in DCS (which it's a game, they can only recreate what they can recreate for reality) I'm sure, but for game sake and due to it's limited realism, should imply that as that is pretty much all we get for damage modelling at this point. Overall I feel ED and their Third Party Model creators do a very good job at simulating what they can, but there are definitely areas where it can be improved by slight tweaks to coding. (As far as I know, especially when it comes to damage model thresholds)

FYI I just Google this info... Pick the most accredited answer I can find. Unfortunately, sometimes the only answer I can find is on Wikipedia, in which if it sounds legit I'll use it, if it sounds far fetched I won't. AH-64 was not from Wikipedia but info for the Ka-50 and Hind were. It does sound strong, yes, but for some reason the Hind damage model actually mimics what I've read and the other two AH's react more like a Utility Helicopter (Damage wise in game). I take the numbers with somewhat a grain of salt but still use them as a baseline... I've literally had my engines shot out and/or pilot sniped on the Blackshark and Apache from small arms fire (7.62mm rds), no I'm not sending proof, you'll just have to take my word for it as I do play DCS A LOT! lol Now don't get me wrong, multiple shots to the same area would and should penetrate even with 7.62 rds, what I will continually harp on and continually reiterate is the Hind feels legit whereas the other two do not. As for cockpit glass with 12.7mm rds it is my understanding from what I've read and presented that is the threshold for all 3 of the AH's (Front and sides is how I interpret it seeing as it states, at least on the Apache quote, "every part of the helicopter can survive 12.7-mm rounds") If we want to be really real and not care about how it "feels as a game", and with all the information that is I'm sure in manufacturer's theory for survivability theory.... I either watched or read something on the Ka-52 (Same basic helicopter as Ka-50, just a two man, like the F-15E is to a F-15C) where Russia is deploying the Ka-52 like a lot of us would play it in DCS, close in attack instead of (only) stand off precision guided missiles, and that is why they are taking such heavy losses (IRL) with that platform. The US on the other hand had initially planned to use the AH-64 in the same manner but quickly found out (can't remember what war, skirmish, battle, conflict it was) they suffered heavy losses with them also in close in support, which is why they changed their tactics to longer range stand-off in most cases. Now these losses are generally (but not specifically) due to Anti-Air missiles or RPG's and not typically due to small to medium arms fire. Why are we circling around the fact (in game) the Hind is a flying tank (in comparison) and the other two just a couple UH's with a lot of guns and advanced weapon and targeting systems?

AH-64: "According to Boeing, every part of the helicopter can survive 12.7-mm rounds, and vital engine and rotor components can withstand 23-mm fire.". Ka-50: "Extensive all-round armour in the cockpit protects the pilot against 12.7 mm armour-piercing bullets and 23 mm projectile fragments. The rotor blades are rated to withstand several hits of ground-based automatic weapons." and "Other survivability features include armour protection for vital aircraft systems, and crash-absorbing landing gear and seats. Also, not having a tail rotor can improve survivability, since the tail boom isn't load-bearing; during testing, a Ka-50 lost its tail, but still managed to return to base without a problem." (As you can see in my video it immediately noses down and crashes.) Definitely not arguing the Hind's tankiness (I feel it has a believable damage model in the game), as it was designed to withstand 12.7 mm rounds to the blades and cockpit, and anything short of 23mm rounds didn't seem to damage it in the (Soviet) Afghan War (Pretty much what Boeing claims the Apache can withstand.). What I'm arguing is the Huey (Which I believe has a very believable damage model) Apache and Blackshark are very akin to each other in the game. Which is 100% false as noted above and in the video. I mean, your footage is good in static testing, however, as you can see from my testing it is very different outcomes. Do you actually play the game and use these modules on a regular basis? My guess would be you play the game but don't typically fly the Helicopters when playing... If you did you'd definitely agree with my analysis. Just trying to help improve the perceived realism and fun factor to the game. Thanks for looking into it and I hope the damage models are improved some day.

Here's a video of what I am talking about and my thoughts on the matter.

On the Apache, yes. It also loses engines incredibly easy. The Blackshark also loses engines incredibly easy, the pilot gets killed incredibly easy, otherwise I have taken a SAM to the face in it and flew home safely. It's weird with the BS, not much consistency other than small arms fire taking out the pilot and engines. The little bit of testing I did was with Huey, Apache, BS3 and Hind.... 4 AK47 and 2 technical with 12.7, flying face first into them. Apache, One engine out before fly over, tail shot off as soon as I passed. BS3, One engine gone shortly after fly over. I was surprised the pilot wasn't killed on the way through. Huey was tail rotor shot out shortly after fly over. Hind.... Well let's just say I got bored with them trying to damage it after 5 fly overs. EDIT: I guess what I'm conveying is if the BS3 and Apache have correct, realistic damage models, NERF the Hind. If it is in fact the Hind has the correct damage model, BUFF the Apache and BS3. I'd prefer the latter as that seems more accurate in my mind.