Bwaze

If there is a mechanical “deadzone” or free play due to oil damper I would check if everything is tightened as it should be - collar on the damper sometimes arrives very loose. If that doesn’t help you can check the oil damper movement by detaching it and moving it by hand. If it has a “deadzone” you should contact Winwing, they should send you a new one.

I haven't tried it yet, but I suppose you can set the deadzone in the SimApp Pro - if you uncheck the "Default" setting, you can enter your own value, even the decimal numbers. But the higher resistance settings on the damper can mean rudder pedals won't perfectly recenter - at higher settings mine don't recenter even with default deadzone, I imagine they are more for a "helicopter mode" - without the spring, without return to center. Relevant setting, I think it hasn't changed: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/291199-winwing-orion-hotas-review/?do=findComment&comment=4929823

Is there a “free play” in the damper due to some wiggle room in attachment - either at end collars or in the collar around the damper cylinder? Is there “free play” in damper if you detach it and try to move it by hand? Mine doesn’t have any free play (but it has some “stiction”). These cheap dampers are copies of motorcycle steering dampers that originally cost $300, not $15, so people usually say “you get what you pay for” if you complain about lack of smoothness, free play, longevity problems…

Just received my pedals! Winwing Skywalker (Orion Metal Flight Rudder Pedals)! My unboxing, assembly (without damper for now), measuring force needed for full yaw and brake deflection, comparison to to Baur BRD-MS3 rudder pedals (2017) - since many people commented relatively high force needed for full deflection and brake press. Interesting points: Manual states 8.5 kg force for full yaw deflection, I measured about 11.4 kg! Manual states 7.5 kg force for full brake deflection, I measured about 6.3 kg. For comparison, Baur BRD-MS3 rudder pedals (2017) only need 6.2 kg for full yaw deflection, about half of Winwing Skywalker / Orion rudder's 11.4 kg! For maximum brake deflection I measured about 2.7 kg, less than half of Winwing Skywalker / Orion rudder's 6.3 kg!

First batches have Skywalker branding, next ones will have Orion Metal Flight Rudder Pedals, since Winwing changed the name to avoid copyright problems. I imagine name in Windows could change with new firmware? We will see.

Allowing sleep of USB ports has nothing to do with lights staying on when computer is powered down. Some motherboards have options in BIOS for behaviour of USB devices with LED lights. My Gigabyte x570 Aorus Elite for instance has it under: bios/settings/Miscellaneous LED's in Sleep, Hibernation & Soft Off states You can also try to enable ErP: ErP is the short form of “Energy-related Products.” In BIOS, ErP is a special feature. It prevents the computer from draining energy by shutting down all the energy-related devices. But it is bugged for a long time now, no matter what setting it is, my mouse and other attached devices with lights remain powered on on my computer.

Prices seem great. But stuff like screens, displays really need flawless communication with DCS, and right now many users have problems with simple light status communication on their panels and throttle bases, or the software actually hogs too much resources to be usable. I'd wait for the reviews. User reviews, not Youtuber praises, paid by the free review samples.

I had to remove the WSS switch on the Hornet grip twice - when I bought the grip it was getting stuck in two positions, forward and back. Unfortunately I found out I had no Thrustmaster warranty since I bought the stick through the Ebay site (even though it was a new stick, and sale was made by a large store, not individual). But the store agreed to cover the cost of the new button from Thrustmaster support. The other option was returning the stick, but I would be loosing shipping both ways. I also had a hard time getting the switch out. I tried to push the hidden clip with some random things but it was just too inaccessible. So I used brute force, but I damaged the old (already malfunctioning) switch in the process. I installed the new WSS (without thoroughly checking it first), but it was getting stuck too, this time just in one direction. Thrustmaster did send me another one for free after I made necessary videos, and this time I prepared myself and created a "WSS switch extraction tool" - a small cheap screwdriver that I bent 90 degrees and also bent the tip a bit. It was a bit too thick so I couldn't quite reach the clip with ease, but after a couple of tries i hit near enough so it released and the switch fell out. You see the dents on the switch in the image - they look deep but they are more or less scratches. So if I would make it again I'd grind the first centimetre or two to a thinner shape. Thrustmaster could have easily included such a tool with their switches which have inaccessible clips, it would cost them peanuts. And it's a bit offensive that they don't even acknowledge the difficulty of removing the switches in their PDF guide and technical support communication.

I have ordered finger lift kit for my first version of Orion throttle / F18 grips. I now have some reservations, before I have even gotten it. 1. The detent mechanism between the throttle levers is glued with double sided tape onto the base in version for Orion V1. No, really, it's in the PDF installation guide in Winwing store. And it seems you can't install F-16 throttle grip with it in place - which is a detail Winwing should communicate to buyers of their "modular" system. 2. You get an adjustable detent system with the finger lift kit, but the removal of old detent system from first version of Orion throttle base was apparently seen as too complicated, so you will have two detent pairs - old push through detents and new detents that are push through in afterburner and strictly finger lift at idle / off. Of course that is messy - it's a mess if they are not aligned (where am I, at old or new afterburner detent?), and by aligning them you loose the whole reason for buying adjustable detents, and also force of overcoming the detent will ad up! 3. Old throttle grip mounting plates were solid aluminium. And praised for offering a really solid experience - compared to for instance bendable Thrustmaster Warthog throttle grips. New ones with finger lift mechanism are plastic. And of course not as solid any more. ... Finger Lift KIT for Orion(1st Gen) is only $50. But adding shipping (fortunately only $19), adding 22% of VAT to both, and some extra customs fees it will be closer to $100...

Here are several screengrabs from Grim Reapers' video that show F-18 finger lift assembly and operation. You can see the probable reason why they came up with the mechanism that they use, swivelling paddles instead of just lifting them - look at the image of throttle in afterburner position - there isn't space for normal finger lifts that just lift a bit:

Grim Reapers: Product Review: Winwing ORION HOTAS Throttle Base V2 Nice overview of the changes from 1st gen base to V2. There's also a short bit about finger lifts on F-18 throttle grips. They look like they work far differently than I imagine, instead of just lifting they swivel upwards - might be the only way they could make them fit under the grips in the afterburner position, since it comes so far forward. We see that new Orion base does not have detents in throttle levers - which is logical, F-16EX throttle has it's own detent system, F-18 throttle grips now have their own finger lift system, and Black Shark collective grip has short movement that doesn't reach the detent positions. So for using Finger Lift KIT for Orion (1st Gen) I imagine we will have to disassemble the 1st Gen Orion throttle base and remove the detent captive ball stops? That's quite a lot of disassembly. Also, will the lower part of the F-18 finger lift detents that is installed on a base be in a way of F-16EX throttle grip? The part that goes between the throttle handles and is installed on the base, and is screwed with two long screws that go through the base. It wasn't a quick swap system before (with fiddly setup of rails), and it looks like more things to uninstall / reinstall, if it has to be removed.

It certainly looks like current F-18 Grip for Winwing Orion, but with fingerlifts and perhaps adjustable detents (arc in the middle)? I wonder if this will be an add-on for current customers or new version of Winwing Orion throttle base? Image focuses just on the grip, fingerlifts and detent mechanism, so I hope it will be an add-on. For comparison, stock Orion base with F-18 grip:

Mistery solved! There is a setting for deadzone in SimApp Pro - if you click on the axis it shows "Dead zone setting" below! It was set to Default. But I have now unchecked the "Default" option and set it to "0", and this is it - now it has no deadzone whatsoever! It also now shows that stick doesn't centre perfectly, of course - perfect centre would be 32767, it centres at about 32550 (0.5% out) in jaw and 32850 (0.25% out) in pitch - most probably due to stick extension. It also accepts decimal numbers, even 0.2% now gives me no dead zone, but still perfectly centred stick. So it is user configurable.

Yeah, Winwing shop page actually states, in a broken English: Follow features are cancel compare to Super Libra Joystick base: Center Stop Device(CSD) for ZERO DEAD ZONE. As a feature Orion doesn't have - so Super Libra Joystick base should be the one with zero dead zone, and Orion has one. I have asked on HOTAS Discord channel, which several Winwing representatives attend, and I got this advice: I have tried it, and even reversed the procedure, but the deadzone remained the same. Of course deadzone is much more pronounced since I have Winwing extension installed, which adds about 115 mm. About "tiny deadzone being huuuuge" in certain situations - perhaps in normal conditions, but Winwing Orion base has a large throw - 20 degrees in each direction, so there is about 280 mm of travel from one side to the other. And the portion with the deadzone is also the portion with lowest spring resistance, so it's easier to move it a bit more in the centre - quite the opposite than in Warthog stick with it's hard detent. And deadzone isn't something real sticks are completely without - for instance breakout forces in aircraft with moveable sticks, deadzone in F-16 side controler - it disregards any force lower than 1.75 lbs - that's about the force most home joysticks need for full deflection, not just to break out of deadzone!

I have searched and I haven't found any axis customization options in SimApp Pro software, apart from those that are offered (setting afterburner ratio for throttle axis, axis movement speed for virtual axis assigned to buttons)... There is nothing in calibration portion or settings that would affect this. Deadzone isn't big - less than 1 degree of movement in any direction, on my extended Winwing Orion I'd estimate deadzone size is about 5 x 5 mm. It shows as 1 degree on my graphs due to rounding. This is looking at raw DicectX axis response, in SimApp Pro or in any other joystick testing software, so it's not DCS related (where you can set deadzone and curves, but this only affects response in game). Small deadzone makes sense in Orion which has very soft feeling centre - due to single cam mechanism there is no hard bump or any strong centring force that would insure that stick would fall exactly in centre. This weak centring force is most probably also the reason why stick extension isn't recommended for Orion - although stick centres easily by itself if you let it go, you can very easily give small input by mistake because forces are weak near the centre. Super Libra has different mechanism, with stronger centring force. But I don't have Super Libra base to check for deadzone. I haven't seen anyone else mentioning the deadzone in Winwing Orion or in Super Libra, but this does not surprise me, since most of the reviews are now non technical Youtube praises that are mostly made so the creator will get another product for free.

Shipping costs get simply added together because all items are actually shipped in their separate boxes. And yes, it's absurdly high for cheaper, smaller items. People have seen quotes above $50 for a small replacement switch in a bubble envelope. Winwing states that this is the best, cheapest reliable shipping with tracking they can get, but I think a lot of cost could be lowered if they would combine smaller items. But that adds complications with packaging, so I don't think anything will change.

No, unfortunately not, Winwing connector is similar but it has one extra pin, so it's Mini DIN6, Thrustmaster is Mini DIN5.

You're lucky, F/A-18 is a rare modern aircraft we have (parts of) a document about cockpit geometry. MDC A4277-5 FA18A and TF/A18a Human Engineering Crew Station Design document. I hope it's OK to upload, document is from 1979, but I don't know anything about it's status. It's a bit of a complication, there are two gimbals on a real F/A-18 stick, one for left / right movement, and 6 inches lower down one for fore / aft. And document measures up to a specific point on a stick. I found the old photos that were uploaded to now nearly dead Photobucket. They might have some errors in conversions. I have cleaned up the images a bit and added measurement in millimetres (they are rounded to nearest millimetre), and uploaded them up on my Photobucket. I also made an aligned common image of all three views, but I'm not too sure about alignment of back view.

I tought the geometry of throttle levers is the same between Orion and Gemini base? The Winwing store states that Gemini base is "Compatible with other winwing throttle grip." - which is not entitely true after release of F-16EX throttle grip, you can't attach the rails to Gemini base. The PDF manual states explicitly "Suitable for F-18 throttle grip." Are you sure you're attaching the grips the right way around, using the right screw holes? I would look the Orion base manual for reference. Maybe you're missing mounting plates from F-18 grips package? But I haven't seen it work, so it's possible it doesn't fit and the web page and manuals are wrong...

Difference is in base. Left one has Super Libra base, suitable for extension, adjustable, two cam design. Also, Z-axis add on compatible. Right one is Orion stick base, single cam design, not really suitable for stick extension (you can use it, but spring forces near centre are quite weak then), non adjustable. Also, Orion base comes with base plate and suction cups and is suitable for desktop use - but not really comfortable due to height, and spring forces are quite high for suction cups, it only kind of works on completely smooth tables. Super Libra is only meant to be mounted, but Orion is also much better mounted than on suction cups.

Some thoughts on Winwing F-18 stick buttons and switches, compared to Thrustmaster Warthog (F-18 and F-16): Buttons like Weapon Release, Undesignate / Nosewheel steering are a bit soft on Winwing, compared to Thrustmaster. 5-way switches also don't have great resistance, but they have rather large travel with progressive spring force, so you don't engage them by accident. Winwing F-18 5-way switches are gated (except trim hat) - on F-16EX I think they are not. Trigger isn't too soft, but it has a strange "three stage" feel - first you actuate the first stage switch, then you have a stop (a leaf spring) which buckles if you press further, and at the end of travel there is second stage switch, less defined than the buckling of spring in the middle. I understand the logic behind that, you can press the first stage and be sure you'll not press the second stage switch by accident, but it's still strange. Some people have modified it, they bent the leaf spring a bit so that this intermediate detent isn't in the middle of the travel, it coincides with second stage switch - but it's fiddly work. Some people also aren't fans of softer forces on most of the buttons, and feel like Winwing is a step down from Warthog, since real aircraft sticks have even greater actuation forces. Some people even modify their Thrustmaster sticks to install real Otto switches and hats, each costing more than Thrustmaster or Winwing grip itself... I don't mind softer buttons. They are crisp, with audible and tactile clicks, more similar to Thrustmaster F-18 grip than silent Thrustmaster A-10 / F-16 grip. And on sticks with relatively soft spring force these buttons are perfect - I feel like real hard to actuate buttons would actually throw your aim when you would press them. If you consider these forces on real F/A-18 stick: "Stick Force. In maneuvering flight, there is a light but constant stick force per g (about 3.5 to 4.5 pounds/g)." You only need about 1.4 kg to fully deflect the Winwing Orion F-18 stick, about 1 kg with extension. And even less for Thrustmaster Warthog, about 1 kg for unextended, 0.6 kg for extended stick. In real F/A-18 you'll be pulling 2 kg at 2 g, 6 kg at 3 g... and so on until about 15 kg of force needed for maximum - 7.5 g. So more than 10x the force needed for our feeble sim sticks. So using real switch which needs about the same actuation force as the stick at full deflection doesn't sound like a very balanced control system (in Otto replacement page here in this forum one user used 4 lbs (1.8 kg) switch for Weapon Release). Pressure sensing real F-16 side stick needs about 11 kg for full pitch and 8 kg of force for full roll! You can buy FSSB-R3 which is relatively accurate force sensing base (and costs about 500 EUR) which maxes out at about 6 kg, much higher than moving gimbal bases, but still only about half of the real one. Real life switches and hats carry great responsibility - accidental release or accidental press which make you fail your mission (or kill you or other people you don't intend to kill) are something completely different in real life compared to our gameplay. And I think I've read that all cockpit switches, buttons, levers have to be extra sturdy for the simple fact that pilots don't enter and exit the plane too carefully, and maintenance crew can bump into them while working in cockpit - they have to survive boot kick, not just finger press! It would be nice if we would have this sturdiness in our toys, but it's more economical to just yell at your simpit maintenance crew to be more careful.

Yeah, I'm happy. In ideal world I'd wish for a bit more centring force near the centre with extended stick, maybe I'll try to find stronger springs - gimbal seems sturdy enough to support this. I have also considered Super Libra stick base, but the increased price and increased shipping cost was really a bit too far. And at least for me the single cam design really works - stick is really smooth when transitioning through the centre of axes, some users report they can't get their Super Libra bases to do that (user error or just nature of two cam gimbal?).

I have absolutely no experience with VKB or with Virpil (apart from the Baur rudder pedals, which are similar to Virpil ACE Interceptor rudder pedals). But as far as I know, VKB Gladiator Premium is their "basic" unit. The prices reflect that, but it isn't just the scaled down stick gimbal, everything in the stick is more budget oriented, from buttons to hats...

Grim Reapers Product Review: Winwing Orion F-16EX Throttle (vid 2 of 3):

Short RedKite WinWing F-16 EX Stick Review.