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hughlb

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About hughlb

  • Birthday 10/30/1985

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    DCS World
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    Adelaide, South Australia
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    Aviation, Sims, Gaming, VFX, Rowing, Formula 1, Stout and Dark Beers
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    Visual Effects Lecturer

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  1. We tried this method, and in fact tried using a technique to activate exclusive fullscreen in the single threaded open beta. There was a time before 2.8 where alt+entering was possible, and improved the smoothness of the image. Sadly, this didn't affect the TrackIR issue.
  2. You are not correct. It did work, in fact it worked well prior to 2.7 as well, for several years. I first reported on this issue in DCS back in 2016. It was a problem then, and then at some point ceased being one. I can only speak from my own experience, it may have remained an issue for others. As for MSFS and IL-2. I can jump into either of those right now, and it is a night and day difference. The issue simply doesn't exist. With MSFS, I need to enable both vsync and gsync, and with both I cap my framerate at 100 FPS. But I don't need 60 or 120 FPS to get it smooth, it is smooth at variable framerates. This nullifies the idea it is a poling problem, or hardware issue, per se. If it was, shouldn't I have this problem in all applications that use TrackIR? I don't, therefore a more probable cause is how the game engine interprets TrackIR data. To quote NaturalPoint themselves from the other week "TrackIR does attempt some smoothing, but again, only reports that same data 120 times a second. If the game is out of sync, you will see periods of time where the game and TrackIR line up, and periods of time where it does not. This results in multiple frames in a row receiving the same data, and some frames even being lost. The jumping/acceleration the user observes is likely the game engine not polling at the right rate with his configuration. This is especially a problem if the game is depending on the framerate to poll TrackIR information. It should be its own process independent of framerate. I also see games often do their own smoothing for other input sources so that this is less noticeable if anything goes out of sync." https://forums.naturalpoint.com/viewtopic.php?t=25141&sid=937eb55a2ec8cea58a870dd11272d602&start=10 Not to repeat myself from my original post - but I have tested this across different systems, seven years apart in terms of hardware, different OS, and even a different TrackIR units. The issue is identical on both systems. I have even moved house several times. Everything susggests this is game engine related, and perhaps more broadly, including interaction with GPU drivers, and how they work with TrackIR position data. It is a solvable problem, at least in as much as it can be minimized or controlled to the point of it not being noticeable. And I think, based on the feedback from NatrualPoint, that this needs to be mitigated by the game developer. TrackIR spits out its data, the game engine uses that to address camera position.
  3. It is really pronounced. The easiest way to describe it is this - it looks like the frame rate is 20-30 FPS. For example, if my frame rate and monitor is set at 100 FPS and 100 Hz, respectively, but I look around with TrackIR, then the frame rate resembles 20-30 FPS. Keep in mind, the frame rate is not 20-30 FPS, it is 100 FPS. If I hold my head still, and instead use the mouse to pan the camera around, it looks like 100 FPS. My original video demonstrates that every five frames or thereabouts, we essentially get an anomalous position update for TrackIR. In that there is a 'jump' or 'spike' in in-game head position. It is subtle. There are more or less 25 of these erroneous frames every second, if the frame rate is 100 FPS. This presents as a rhythmic judder. I think people often misdiagnose the issue because they look for a stutter. The terminology isn't great at defining the appearance of the problem. A stutter can be rythmic, but the intervals can be seconds or more, or a stutter might not be rythmic at all, and instead be a hitch or pause, or sequence of pauses. This is a predictable, repeatable problem that occurs all the time, 25 times a second, when using TrackIR in DCS. For anyone following - below is a collection of different forum threads, over several years, detailing this specific problem, and how locking frame rate to 60 or 120 FPS resolves the issue. The question however, is why did TrackIR in DCS once work perfectly (2.7) at variable high frame rates, and why don't I currently have this issue in MSFS or IL2? It is possible to resolve this problem, and it appears to be game engine related, and how TrackIR input data is resolved by the engine. Also, notice how many threads relate to DCS. I rarely see this mentioned in MSFS, for example. 2016 - https://forums.naturalpoint.com/viewtopic.php?t=13991 2018 - https://forum.dcs.world/topic/186271-track-ir-stutter-fix-petition-at-natural-points-forum/ 2018 - https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?t=4242 2018 - https://forum.dcs.world/topic/172576-25-trackir-stuttering/ 2018 - https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/40171-stuttering-while-turning-my-head-in-the-cockpit-solved-to-95/ 2021 - https://forum.dcs.world/topic/293359-does-ir-tracking-have-issues-stuttering-above-60fps/ 2021 - https://forum.dcs.world/topic/288806-stutters-flickery-motion-with-new-144hz-freesync-monitor-and-track-ir-running/ 2021 - https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/smlqdj/alot_of_people_say_they_have_to_disable_gsync/ 2022 - https://forum.dcs.world/topic/293359-does-ir-tracking-have-issues-stuttering-above-60fps/ 2022 - https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/619132-track-ir-stutters-with-msfs/
  4. We have established that 'mouse look' or panning the camera using the mouse is smooth, whilst looking around with TrackIR is juddering. However, when I change my mouse poling rate from 500 to 125 Hz, I notice the mouse panning also starts to begins to stutter, not as badly but noticeably less smooth than 500 Hz or 1000 Hz. I haven't noticed this in other games.
  5. FYI - Whilst I don't have a solution, after a lengthy troubleshooting period with the team at NaturalPoint, they have acknowledged and expanded on how the interaction between the game engine and polling rate of TrackIR can be a cause for this problem. But it also helps explain why some titles (MSFS, IL2 GB) don't present the same problem, under the same conditions. I feel there is hope that ED can solve or minimize the effect. As I have pointed out, prior to 2.8/2.9, for a long period with 2.7 and prior, this wasn't an issue for DCS, it appeared to be resolved. So it is possible to get TrackIR communicating smoothly with DCS, at variable refresh rates outside of 60 and 120 Hz. I have attached the post provided by Jillian from NaturalPoint, with good information from a NaturalPoint software engineer. I have also pasted my response below, and you can also read the forum thread here - https://forums.naturalpoint.com/viewtopic.php?t=25141&start=10 "Hi Jillian, thanks again for your response and investigation. This is really critical information, and something I feel developers, such as Eagle Dynamics, should be better alerted to by NaturalPoint. FYI, I have a lengthy troubleshooting thread on both the Eagle Dynamics forum, and through an open support ticket. Almost everything has been suggested with the exception of recognition that this may be an in-engine issue in how the tracking data is retrieved and, consequently, smoothed. Again, really critical information for developers. They may be implementing TrackIR support without fully understanding how to manage its data, and circumvent this stuttering issue. Again, no change after looking into these suggestions. I think we can, at this point, assume the issue is a TrackIR polling rate, frame rate interaction, and how that is handled by the game engine. The only "fix" to this issue we have come across, is switching game engines. MSFS can have a variable framerate, as can IL2 Great Battles, without causing this stuttering problem, or at least minimizes it significantly. However, DCS is severely hampered by stuttering at framerates outside of a fixed 120 or 60 fps. The fact also, that for several years, and prior to their current 2.8/2.9 versions, they had resolved this issue (perhaps inadvertently), again support that this isn't a user issue with hardware or software conflicts and settings. I will update my ticket with Eagle Dynamics and make these suggestions, but it would be useful if NaturalPoint could reach out and alert ED to the fact this issue can be both triggered, but also resolved by the developer. They might then look at how they can smooth TrackIR input data, perhaps even review previous versions where the issue wasn't apparent."
  6. I thought you might be onto something there 5ephir0th. But no change. I tried both the global and program setting for Background Application Max Frame Rate, with combinations of 60 and 100 FPS, but no effect on stuttering and the TrackIR software itself still indicates 30 FPS.
  7. As boerdi shows, use FPS Monitor or Fraps, and open the TrackIR software. It should have a counter in the top right or left corner of the screen. I believe they run the app at 30 FPS to minimize pressure on the CPU, as the software is just a monitor to ensure its tracking properly. The sensor itself would still be running at 120 Hz, I would have thought.
  8. I have responded to their post, but it hasn't cleared moderation yet. Essentially though, minimizing didn't make any difference (or any of the other suggestions). The only strange thing was the 30 FPS of the TrackIR software, but it may be a red herring.
  9. A very good point indeed boerdi. I do run two powered hubs for peripherals, but have been running my TrackIR directly into the rear IO. I will test your suggestion. Another point worth raising for people reading this thread - over on the Natural Point forum, I was asked to check what my TrackIR framerate is running at. It is 30 FPS in the Track IR window. When I move my mouse around in the window it jumps up to 100 FPS to match my monitor output. Odd... perhaps nothing, I mean the Track IR window may be running at 30 FPS displayed, but the sensor running at 120 Hz, but worth noting. I will see what Natural Point say in response.
  10. No unfortunately. I have posted a response there, but it takes a while to clear moderation. The smoothing options in the TrackIR, which were a good idea to test, made no difference.
  11. Again good data. I have had this issue occur with a 100 Hz and 144 Hz monitor, but never had a monitor that could go any higher. I recall with the 144 Hz monitor, I found dropping it to 120 Hz fixed the issue, but I never went into that 150-175 Hz range. One thing for people to know, if you try to look for this issue with a 60Hz monitor or with a framerate below 60 FPS, don't bother. Any stutter gets lost in the trailing/ghosting and inherently less smooth image at that framerate. There weren't many people running 144Hz monitors back in 2016, which is maybe why I didn't find much help back then.
  12. Possibly Hiob, but I really doubt it. If it were, you would see it in all applications equally I would have thought. I can go play IL2 GB right now and its smooth, MSFS is somewhere in between, and DCS is just horrible for whatever reason. Also I have my USB devices connected via two powered hubs for everything except keyboard and mouse, and I have turned those hubs off for testing to remove an possible conflicts. I even have a new mouse and keyboard in my latest PC of different brand, so that rules out those causing an issue. Windows 10 and 11 same problem. I think it is something to do with the polling rate of the TrackIR, that's the only suspect presently, because of that 120Hz polling rate. But as others have pointed out, it shouldn't really matter, it's just spitting out position data at pretty high rate. Such a strange issue. Vsync seems to have an impact on it, not in DCS, but in other titles, so perhaps we are seeing something akin to screen tearing, but in this instance motion induced stutter.
  13. That's great data Loukuins, it'll be interesting to see if someone more knowledgeable than me can shed light on why that is occurring, maybe as you say, DCS needs a specific ratio of refresh rate to camera input. Thanks.
  14. Yes, part of the reason I have looked into this issue again is - A) It has returned to DCS since the release of 2.8 for me, and is too jarring to unlock my frame rate above 60 fps. The image resembles 20-30 apparent FPS when looking around, despite a locked 100 FPS. B) NaturalPoint are answering forum threads, and troubleshooting issues, and so are Eagle Dynamics. Both communities are in a better state than they were in 2016 when I first raised this issue, and seem very receptive to helping. I have had at least three ED employees try to assist in this problem thus far. What we don't have yet, is a clear explanation for what is happening. We know the issue exists, I just provided a video analysis of it, many users have arrived at the same conclusion independently that for whatever reason 60Hz (or 120Hz if you can maintain it), provide a 'fix' to this issue. I am optimistic that a software solution is viable, be it the TrackIR itself, or how the game interfaces with TrackIR (or possibly 6DoF in general). This is because the experience is different game to game. I just fired up IL2 GB and its butter smooth at a locked 100 FPS when looking around with TrackIR, go figure.
  15. If you have a 120Hz monitor, and are gaming at 120 FPS, then you are perfectly matched with TrackIR's native 120Hz polling rate. 60fps will seem "worse" because it is low enough that you will see some ghosting or trailing of the image as you look around, but it will look smoother than 61-119 FPS, because it is a perfect division of 120 (2x 60 = 120). There is absolutely no performance trouble in DCS. You can see I am running a 100Hz monitor, and can easily maintain 100 FPS or greater with a 4090 and 7800X3D. I have also tested with a completely different machine running a 1080TI and 4790K, on a different OS, and the issue is the same. I have tested with different TrackIR's also.
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