Theodore42

I'm not sure OPs methodology is sound but I've noticed the EM charts for jets with afterburners seem to indicate the max sustained turn rate is at or near the G limit, not the corner speed.

The dogfight was recorded on December 14 on the open beta build so I think it is the current M2000. This is the ace AI, so it flies extremely efficiently but doesn't take into account the advantages of the specific matchup, although it does choose 1 circle vs 2 circle based on the matchup well. Players aren't going to fly quite as efficiently, but even inexperienced (bad) players are going to dodge bullets if they've ever seen someone line up a tracking shot behind them and gotten splattered. And there's a good chance players will dodge snap shots as well. Generally, a thrust to weight ratio fighter is going to be stuck seeking guns solutions in the form of snapshots. To maximize the kill chance for snapshots vs a player, get them as low on energy as possible and then set up a snapshot at about the range I made the kill in the video (imo atm). Any closer and it gets hard to roll the crosshairs over the target. (The M2000 is half the size of an F-14 so it's a lot closer than it looks.) If a player target is far enough away, and low enough on energy, anticipate that they will jink at the snapshot and be ready for it. Winning the snapshot becomes more of a question of how good you are at mechanics in FPSs or MOBAs rather than how well you understand BFM (How good your reactions are). But the timing leading up the moment of the snapshot requires good BFM. From Shaw, Tactics and Maneuvering, paraphrasing from p67-71 [Lag Pursuit Roll]: Use a barrel roll to move from lead pursuit to lag pursuit to prevent an overshoot. [Lag Displacement Roll]: Use a barrel roll to move from lead pursuit to lag pursuit to increase distance. In the video I use the terms a little arbitrarily, and the distinction is kinda arbitrary anyway, but these are some of the most powerful maneuvers you can use in an F-16. Shaw is published by the Navy so it's free to download, or you can buy a hard copy on Amazon, or wherever. The M2000 can't use its turn radius to defeat an F-16 because that blows all the M2000's energy and it takes a lot more time to get that energy back than the Viper. At that range I wasn't risking an overshoot, I would have done a lag pursuit roll and been fine. The ace AI knows that and doesn't try. It is always efficient. Here is what would have happened: When I noticed the M2000 blowing his energy on a turn, I would have mirrored his turn to zero out the Heading Course Angle. Then I would have pitched up and done a barrel roll over him. I would end the roll on the far side of him in lag pursuit. This adds a lot of distance to your flight path and keeps you behind the target, which is going really slow and has no energy. The Viper can add energy much easier, but doesn't have to in that situation, because the Viper still has all the speed it needs vs a target that has just blown all his. The right and left switching is the AI trying to make a one circle fight. Another way to think of it is that he is trying to create flight path separation. The AI did this maneuver against me successfully at 1:11 in the video. You can see him move away from me and then back, creating enough flight path separation for the rolling scissors, neutralizing my advantage. In other words, he put himself onto my turn circle, even though I was behind him, and won by converting my tail chase into a one circle fight. I went out of plane, so it became a rolling scissors rather than a flat scissors, which is the correct counter for the F-16, but he still neutralized my position. IMO the really doom part of the video is at about 2:25 when I'm too close to him and we're doing those barrel rolls around each other. ANY player, no matter how bad, would have made a MESS of that, and ANY player would have a shot at winning there. The MAIN WEAKNESS of the AI is that is completely lacks aggression. At 2:25 it looks really cool for a YouTube video, but the target is really just dancing with me. A player that close would have thought KILL KILL KILL and done something crazy agro. The AI in DCS is great for studying the philosophy of BFM but the AI will never get a sudden KILL insight. Bad players do all the time, and it often works, even at the worst times. !!! DISCLAMER: This is only what I think is right at the moment. I learn by reading Shaw, imitating what I read in DCS, reading Shaw again and probably picking up only ONE thing, going back to DCS and doing and UNDERSTANDING that ONE thing; and then repeat.

I started recording my dogfights and saying the BFM that I was doing so I could remember what I was thinking when I played them back. I thought the videos were cool so I uploaded them to youTube and they were kinda popular. But I stopped narrating because as my skill improved there was just too much for me to think about and also speak at the same time. I tried uploading the dogfights to music but that just isn't as popular. So here is a new form of video, I pretty much analyze everything I'm thinking about. It's my first attempt but it's --MOSTLY coherent. (!)

Keeping it green is for repositioning or other non-combat missions to maximize engine life. But the Mustang is a weapon of war and weapons break when you use them. IRL this means that the P-51 engine had a lot more maintenance than her GA contemporaries. In DCS it means nothing The hottest the engine gets is during the climb, so your description of the oil temp being pegged to the red line during climb out sounds about right. As long as the needles don't stray INTO the red then you're ok. If left in AUTO this almost never happens, unless you're running max power at very low speeds. Far more likely you will blow your engine overheating the aftercooler rather than overheating the oil or coolant. (there is no temperature gauge for the aftercooler btw) Once you get the hang of being ok with the temps always being a little too close to the red, but never in it; the next issue you will have is that now you suddenly need to be closing your radiator doors because they are making too much drag. If you get into "normal" dogfights, like you see in the movies, you're going to notice the radiator doors are always open, even when you dive into a low yoyo and get going really fast. All that drag! When your mentality gets to this point, leave it in AUTO and instead fly faster and less aggressively. The Mustang is for "boom and zoom" tactics, you boom the target, then you zoom away, up, and sustain that speed as long as possible, because no matter how good your opponent is at climbing the Mustang will have less drag at high speeds. So you always have an advantage when going fast. And if you leave radiator flaps in AUTO while sustaining high speeds, they will always be mostly closed, compounding your advantage. But like graffspee said above, the Mustang's AUTO doesn't transition between those two styles well. If you insist on getting into a knife fight in the Mustang then you can expect the radiator doors to be gaping most of the time. I can't honestly say there aren't opportunities to manually min/max drag in those situations... but in my experience, 99% of players would be better served keeping trimmed up and flying the ball rather than thinking about micromanaging radiator flaps.

The Viper can out accelerate anything between 300 and 400 knots... Unload to less than 1 G and you go from 300 to 400 in about 2 seconds. Use the Small turn radius at 300 to get geometrically behind the bandit, unload 2 seconds to accelerate... that's the idea behind a low yo-yo btw. You can also out accelerate anything between about 350 and 500 while pulling about 3-5Gs. If you get the hang of unloaded acceleration between 300 and 400 and loaded acceleration between 350 and 500 then you're going to be hard to catch. Also, oblique (climbing) turns = bad; slice (diving) turns = good, especially vs the Hornet. The first step to learning BFM is to understand turning circles. This is just the radius of the turns that you and the target are making. They change depending on your speed and the targets speed and the relationship between those two speeds over time, and the geometric relationship between you and the target. When you're learning just notice that this is happening. The second thing to learn is the jargon for the geometric relationships between you and the target aircraft. The angle between your course and the target aircraft is lead angle and the difference between your course and your target's course, Heading-Course Angle. There are many different names for those two ideas but the concepts are universal. Learn to use your speed to manipulate the radii of your turning circles to control the lead angle and HCA between you and your target. The third step is to understand that you will kill the target and that this is not a dance to look cool. Don't worry, you will automatically look cool when you kill the target. The Fourth step is to study the Basic Fighter Maneuvers, because now you understand the geometry you're trying to manipulate, the acceleration (technique) by which you will do it, and your intention to kill the target. If you skip the first 3 steps you will only be practicing formation flying and will be unable to perceive how to utilize BFM to get the kill.

Another:

Don't worry about the rudder unless you want to make a kill in the 3/4 inverted pass position (for style points). Read for free from the Navy: Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering by Shaw. You want chapter 2, which it looks like you've already read; and chapter 4 is what every F-16 nerd should read. It is about 1v1 vs the thrust-to-weight ratio fighter (you) vs low wing-loaded fighters (them). Also, the MiG-21 is a thrust to weight ratio fighter, all be it a different era, but you're gonna want to read chapter 3 for some tips on dealing with other fighters like the F-16. The trick to converting knowledge into kills: You have to want to get the kill. As irrational as it sounds, 99% of the time people jump into a sim 1v1 they end up dancing with the enemy rather than killing them. BFM is basically a dance and if you do it "right" everyone ends up equal. So BFM when you want the kill is about getting an advantage, and you get an advantage by FEELING it, by wanting the kill. Then you have to take what you KNOW is a risk, using BFM, to increase your advantage. I posted a really long and specific list of things to do as a Viper pilot in this thread: And if you have any questions, I DO like talking about how much better the Viper is a dogfighting than anything else! And a lot of other people here do too, don't worry

Ok you guys might be disrespecting the F-15E a little too much on the STRIKE EAGLE'S forum!!!! It can't pull it's nose up quite so fast but the engines will still push through any beep-beep, beep-beep like it's nothing:

Ya for sure. Keeping the pitch above 12 degrees during landing slows you down a lot. It's so effective that people in this thread are wondering why you can't aerobrake under 140 knots when the Viper is really heavy. 1. The manual (irl) says it's ok to land at the max take off weight. BUT you NEED to aerobrake a LOT to get the Viper stopped while it's really heavy because the brakes aren't that great AND 2. In the DCS Viper, you can't aerobrake long enough to slow down enough to stop before the end of the runway that the irl manual says is long enough to safely operate from THEREFORE Either the Viper flight model is wrong and should allow for the ability to aerobrake down to a slower speed OR there are procedures concerning landing near max weight that we don't know. [EDIT: or we all suck at landing] I've seen a video of an F-16 (Spanish maybe?) Taking off with wing tanks and then immediately landing due to a problem. I couldn't find it when I went looking for it though

1v1 guns only dogfight to show the difference between the heavier but more thrusting 229 in the F-15E vs the lighter 220 in the F-15C.

The F-16 has a tail-hook for just such emergencies, right? Probably just the center of gravity with full fuel plus external tanks makes aerobraking unreasonable, even if the landing gear can take landing at 100% of take off weight. When testing I noticed taking off the TGP gets more aerobraking distance when landing heavy.

It will, as long as your speed is stable at the engine settings. If you're still accelerating then it will look like critical altitude is lower than it really is.

The manual says the butterfly valve automatically adjusts up to critical altitude. Critical altitude is when you are at full throttle (the throttle lever is at 100%) and the manifold pressure is at max, 61 inches. The manual says the automatic MP regulator functions: If between 42 and 61 inches MP AND when altitude < critical altitude then the auto MP regulator is functioning. When between 42 and 61 inches and altitude > critical altitude, then the throttle behaves normally. Those are the rules as described in, and inferred from, the manual. No matter your throttle setting, if you are above critical altitude, then the regulator CAN'T maintain manifold pressures at less than 100% of throttle setting. The pilot has to be able to increase the throttle up to 100% to whatever MP a fully opened butterfly valve is when above critical altitude. I remember wasting a lot of time trying to think this out but I just had to do an experiment to understand, something like this: When you are climbing at 100% throttle and speed and your MP starts drop, this is your critical altitude. You'll have to accelerate a minute to get your speed up because MP goes up the faster you are going due to ramjet. So critical altitude is max possible altitude at max manifold pressure AND at max SPEED. (The faster you go the higher you have to go too.) Write down the altitude and speed of the critical altitude. Climb 2000 above that altitude and accelerate to max level speed. Write down your MP at full throttle. Now descend back down to the critical altitude, the one where at FT and max speed your MP just started dropping below 61 inches. Set your throttle to what the MP was at 2000ft above that altitude. Now don't touch the throttle. Climb up 4000 feet, only 500-1000 feet per minute to keep your speed up. What does your MP do as you climb? What is your MP at this new throttle setting stabilized at speed and altitude? Now go back down to the critical altitude and set your MP for what it was at 4000 feet above the altitude. Fly sensibly, like you're really doing an experiment, because speed and trim are factors Thinking won't help, it'll make sense if you just do it.

Describe how exactly you think the system should work in terms of the critical altitude and specific altitude relative to the position of the throttle lever... [Critical Altitude is the highest altitude that you can achieve maximum MP. Specific Altitude is the altitude where Full Throttle is the maximum continuous engine setting.] Edit: I think the specific altitude is maybe technically the critical altitude for maximum continuous power but my point is the same. When you take off and set your MP to max continuous, the butterfly valve is opened such that the pressure in the manifold is 46 inches. As you climb the air thins out and the butterfly valve has to open more to maintain 46 inches of pressure in the manifold. Therefore the butterfly valve automatically opens as you climb without you touching the throttle. That's what this is: "All of this manual states that automatic manifold pressure regulator can maintain set boost between 42 and 61 inch though out all alt up to critical alt. And on top of that Maintenance manual states that differential unit permits manifold pressure regulator to operate throttles independently of cockpit throttle control." When you reach the CRITICAL altitude the air is too thin for the butterfly valve to open all the way and achieve MAX MP. Even though you aren't at max MP but max continuous, this matters. At this point you have to advance the throttle lever to open the butterfly valve enough to maintain the max continuous throttle setting up to your SPECIFIC altitude, which is where at Full throttle (butterfly valve fully open) the Manifold Pressure is set to the max continuous engine setting. If the aircraft could advance the throttle lever on its own then this is where it would do that. But it can't. I'm 99% sure if you guys tried to describe how you think the system works you would end up needing the throttle to move on its own. I've attached some relevant pages from TM 1-407 Aircraft Induction, Fuel, and Oil Systems.

IMO the F-16 Viper has the most streamlined UI. Operating the Viper seems to require the least amount of button presses than the other aircraft and the systems seem fastest to learn. The F-18 Hornet operates from an aircraft carrier. That adds a lot of cool procedures for aviation nerds, but also amplifies the fun in multiplayer. The F-15E Strike Eagle conforms to your criteria and was just released to early access. If you want the Full DCS experience you can learn the Strike Eagle systems as they're implemented. It's kind of fun learning things with everyone else. Not only is the forum full of people asking questions you're trying to ask, and the questions you're going to be asking after a few hours; but you also get people posting the about the history and lore of the aircraft. Common misinformation on the aircraft always comes out and is corrected. Unclear "TV explanations" become clarified with understanding, often by posts made by the very crew that worked on the aircraft. And you will find bugs... but it is a strange learning experience to learn how a system works, find a bug in it, realize it is a bug, then see the bug fixed and the system operate as described in documentation. It will feel forever like you understand that system better than the aircraft itself, or it does for me anyway. Since OP is into the NAVY get the F-18 for sure. You're posting on the Hornet forums for a reason Also get that carrier DLC ED has.

Wrong, -gz when following terrain is called bunting. -gz is useful for modifying geometry to enter into a target's turn circle when you don't have time to flip inverted, correct, and then flip back (or just don't want to show the target your cold side). -gz is useful for avoiding a collision so you don't lose sight of what you're trying to miss. isn't there a really famous example from WWII of the tactical validity of -gz? If you discount the entire regime of -gz then you're going to be making some pretty unnecessary mistakes.

ok. I may have conflated -6Gs from a prop plane demo at that airshow with the F-15C demo. That would make sense because at that age I was only interested in the military aircraft but I surly would have noticed anyone doing high negative-G maneuvers. And those prop pilots do some insane negative-G work. I've looked for any negative G maneuvers in US military airshows and never found anything other than inverted flight.

Ok so maybe they added an automatic cutoff making the high negative-G turn impossible which is why I haven't seen it since the '90s.

When I was a kid in the '90s, probably not even 10, I went to an airshow and saw the most amazing thing: An F-15C do a high-G NEGATIVE turn, for real. I'll never forget it because I couldn't imagine something so painful. Does the F-15C have this restriction? Doesn't it take more than 10 seconds to do 360 degrees in an F-15C at negative 6Gs? I've always wondered about that because I haven't found documentation for a negative high-G turn during a demo, nor have I found any airshow videos of the maneuver.

They might still be in CAT III, or at least none of the maneuvers looked like they needed to be in CAT I. And for all I know "unrestricted Gs" might mean SOP is that maximum Gs in training is 8Gs or 9Gs and not "Whatever max stick deflection gets you" Gs.. Also the sudden onset of Gs in CAT I might be too dangerous with stores so SOP might be to always be in CAT III with stores. FURTHER, any of those assumptions may only be true in training. And he's a test pilot so his squadron might have unique ideas about what's safe to do to the airframe. I've never seen any documented guidance on the matter and it seems others haven't either, so infer what you will from the video. But unless there is a SAFTY issue with CAT I and empty wing tanks, I assume from the video that if you're simulating combat in DCS and your wing tanks are empty, go nuts with CAT I.

https://youtu.be/E_HUrfQqUmA?list=PLCJZqEzsF9_owrrr1KUhyInlDs9od6kPt&t=569 Hazard Lee youTube of a dogfight. The pilot says that he has about 400 pounds to go before unlimited G restriction. He has on 2 wing tanks, 2 AMRAMMS, 1 sidewinder, and all pylons.

Operating a Hornet in war is like playing the piano at a concert. A pianist thinks 0% about the keys he is pressing and 100% about expressing his emotions. A Hornet pilot thinks 0% about the buttons he is pressing and 100% about expressing his will to kill. It's called a "study sim" because it requires lots of thinking and reasoning BUT it is also true that flying and warfare are performing arts. I learn to do things in DCS like I learn a piece of music. If you've ever learned a piece of music, you're going to have parts of the piece that are easy and parts that are hard. Identify the hard parts and then practice them over and over. I had one music teacher that had me repeat the hardest measures over and over without stopping until I got it. I had another music teacher that made me play the hard measures backwards and forwards, and then flipped the music upside down and made me play THAT backwards and forwards. In a performance there isn't time to think about every note. To learn something that's a performing art means being able to do it without thinking about it. To learn how to use the Hornet in this way, METHODICALLY go through every button, page, state, etc of whatever system you're studying (Fuel system, ILS, AA Radar, ATFLIR, HSI, left MFD, etc) and understand what it does. Just go through the buttons as fast as your brain can understand what the point of pressing each button is. At first say literal words in your head but eventually turn it into a meditative, intuitive understanding of the meaning behind the buttons. I do this like I practice music: the faster my brain understands the systems, the faster I go through the buttons. Imo this serves to program the brain to have an intuitive understanding of what the button presses do and no thinking is required to play your instrument of war. That's just my hard and fast way of learning all the button pushing. It's probably not what you meant by practice BUT if I'm fumbling through buttons or don't have a clear understanding of something then that's how I deal with it. For example, the stupid SOI in the Viper has annoyed me a few times so I took about 60 seconds using the DMS switch to flip through all the sensors and situations I could remember that annoyed me and now I own the DMS. And now I get how it's useful when I never used it before. Not really an impressive feat but not something you want to think about when performing combat. Spending 60 seconds in practice is worth it to save 5 seconds in a mission or multiplayer situation. I know that probably isn't what you meant by "practicing things I've learned" but the modern tradition of music is 1000 years old and I think this level of detail translates to fighter jets. People aren't used to thinking this deeply about a video game but the manual for the Hornet is 900 pages and is 100% about pressing buttons and 0% about expressing your will to kill. May as well see if you can go from reading "how to play piano" in a book to playing "Pop Goes the Weasel" on the piano. To practice flying as a performing art of war: Keep things simple. For example, when you practice dropping bombs at the range, you aren't practicing for a mission, nor are you practicing the ingress, you aren't even practicing the attack. You are only practicing the dropping of the bomb on the target. So do THAT. And do it over and over as fast as you can. Pick any bombing mode and do variations on it: practice the attack at different speeds and different altitudes and various dive angles. Use the unlimited ammo. Understand how to get the bomb to the target and you will always be able to either get there fast or you will quickly realize it is impossible and disengage. Check accuracy at the different ranges and speeds. Get a feel for the WEZ. You get more value out of your practice time if you spit it up. 30 mins a day is better than 6 hours over the weekend. Brains learn faster during sleep. They also recall what was done 1 day ago better than 1 week ago. Record your performances. Professional athletes do this commonly. It's difficult to tell how good or bad you are in the moment. Watching back what you've done is a great way to identify mistakes or correct bad habits. I started my YouTube channel posting recordings of myself narrating BFM. I had a real bad time remembering what the hell I was thinking while reviewing my dogfights so I just started narrating what I *thought* I was doing in the moment to remind me later. It's a game, have fun. But if you're playing a study sim then you probably are looking for a little extra. Practice a few things you want to get good at a few times a week and record your weekend missions. When you watch back you will see more clearly how it all needs to come together. [Spoiler alert] Everyone sucks at multitasking. LOL!!