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Uncontrolled Trim


goon3r

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Sorry if I posted this in the wrong sub-forum.

 

Hey guys, I've had this game for about 2 weeks now and have been taking my time going through the manual. I have Trim Mapped to one of the hats on my X52 stick. The problem I'm having is that when I trim in a certain direction the trim seems to be increasing instead of holding steady.

 

For example, I give a slight nudge for Tim Nose Up and the nose starts moving up, but it keeps going and going long after I've let go of the button. Eventually I have to retake control and turn on the autopilot just to fly level. Same with the left and right and nose down Trim.

 

What am I doing wrong here ?

 

I thought that if I Trimmed at 5 degrees Nose UP the bird should stay that way, not keep going.

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Sorry if I posted this in the wrong sub-forum.

 

Hey guys, I've had this game for about 2 weeks now and have been taking my time going through the manual. I have Trim Mapped to one of the hats on my X52 stick. The problem I'm having is that when I trim in a certain direction the trim seems to be increasing instead of holding steady.

 

For example, I give a slight nudge for Tim Nose Up and the nose starts moving up, but it keeps going and going long after I've let go of the button. Eventually I have to retake control and turn on the autopilot just to fly level. Same with the left and right and nose down Trim.

 

What am I doing wrong here ?

 

I thought that if I Trimmed at 5 degrees Nose UP the bird should stay that way, not keep going.

 

you trim your aircraft for speed as well as pitch, if you set it sligtly incorrect the aircraft will try and find that speed again hence either nose drop or rise, the aircraft will pitch in a motion similar to a wave. you realy need to try and get your nose level on the horizion for level flight and every time you move your throttle you need to re trim... if you gets me??

 

hope this helps bud :pilotfly:

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No- not really. Trimming requires constant attention- it's not supposed to hold any particular rate of climb/ descent based on how much you input.

 

Unless your control stick is visibly moving after you let go of the trim button- it's not stuck on or anything like that and is unlikely to be malfunctioning.

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Sorry if I posted this in the wrong sub-forum.

 

Hey guys, I've had this game for about 2 weeks now and have been taking my time going through the manual. I have Trim Mapped to one of the hats on my X52 stick. The problem I'm having is that when I trim in a certain direction the trim seems to be increasing instead of holding steady.

 

For example, I give a slight nudge for Tim Nose Up and the nose starts moving up, but it keeps going and going long after I've let go of the button. Eventually I have to retake control and turn on the autopilot just to fly level. Same with the left and right and nose down Trim.

 

What am I doing wrong here ?

 

I thought that if I Trimmed at 5 degrees Nose UP the bird should stay that way, not keep going.

 

 

Trim is only used to set the aircraft to level flight. When you apply trim, you are telling the trim motors to change the sticks neutral position, it does not set pitch angle and maintain it. With the real aircraft, which you can see in the sim when you look at the stick as well, you are actuating trim motors and moving the sticks centering position relative to where it is with no trim set. As an example, look down at your stick with no stick pressure applied and push the stick trim forward. You will visually see the sticks position trim forward in the cockpit. When you do this, you are physically moving the control surfaces as well. The trim is used to maintain the aircraft in level flight, if you apply too much trim in any one direction, the trim in the control surfaces will apply a constant change to the surfaces, they do not set a pitch or roll and then neutralize as you are thinking it does. You are physically doing nothing wrong, you're thought process as to what the trim actually does is just a little off. ;)


Edited by Rainmaker
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Also, if what you want is to just keep a certain attitude, set your AP to Path on the LASTE panel (below the throttles) and engage autopilot.

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Another thing on trim. Airspeed is everything with trim, it controls how much laminer flow is going over the control surfaces and the trim tabs.

 

So if you give nose up trim and you are going 150kias its going to take alot more trim tab to stay level then with will with say 30kias due to how much air is flowing over the control surfaces and trim tab. So when you speed up the nose is going to want to keep climbing. As the air gets thinner as you climb it will take more aswell.

 

So maybe it takes 2 degrees of trim at 350kts to stay level it may take 10 degrees at 150kts.

 

Trim is somthing you have to play with alot. It just takes pressure of the control stick or yoke by not making you correct for conditions. The plane will fight you in real life up or down with pressure until it is trimmed right!

 

Hope this helps!


Edited by MagpulOperator
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So trim actually changes stick centering position?

 

I always thought it simply actuated the trim tabs on the control surfaces, while the stick moves the entire control surface.

 

... or perhaps only the rudder has trim tabs?

 

Itkovian

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So trim actually changes stick centering position?

 

I always thought it simply actuated the trim tabs on the control surfaces, while the stick moves the entire control surface.

 

... or perhaps only the rudder has trim tabs?

 

Itkovian

 

This is not correct.

Trim works in helo's I know like above.

But on aircraft its usually controlling the trim-tabs on the control surfaces. I wouldn't think this would be any different on the A-10.

Upon checking the flight manual here's what it says on trimming:

 

pg. 46

Elevator trim is provided by trim tabs on the outboard trailing edge of the elevators and can be set both from the control stick and from the Emergency Flight Control System panel using two, independent electrical circuits. These circuits lead to a trim motor that sets the trim tabs and provides artificial feel.

 

pg. 47

Aileron trim is provided by trim tabs on each aileron trailing edge that are powered by trim motors. In addition to manual roll trimming of the aircraft, the aileron trim tabs also provide artificial stick feel. Even if the aileron of the trim tab is disengaged, the trim will still function.

Note that roll trim is not available when in Manual Reversion Flight Control System (MRFCS) mode. Instead, stick movements drive the roll trim tabs.

 

There is no mention of Rudder trim mechanics, but seeing as there are not trim-tabs mentioned on the diagram at the beginning of the chapter I assume rudder is trimmed by setting Rudder deflection.

 

Trim cancels out the force residue on the control surface.

In other words, there is a given airflow over the control surface at a given speed. Without input this would result in a certain force downward or upward from the control surface. The trim tab is set so that the residual force is nullified and the aircraft stays in that attitude if the speed remains the same. Barring center of gravity, ambient pressure and airflow changes of course.

You trim for speed. That's why an aircraft will pitch up when applying additional power after being in trim on level flight; the aircraft accelerates but it trimmed for a slower speed. The aircraft pitches up trying to get back to the trim-speed.

It's a question of energy.


Edited by Yskonyn

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Effectively a trim tab changes the deflection of a control surface, altering it's AOA (angle of attack). If you trim nose up, the trim tab on the elevator deflects up, lowering the elevator AOA and causing tailplane to sink, and the nose to rise. Think of clicking the trim up on your hat switch as effectively pulling back on the stick slightly without letting go, this will cause the nose to keep rising and depending on your airspeed will rise higher and higher, up to the point that the forces between the lowering of the tail and the pull of gravity on the front end of the aircraft are balanced.

 

Atleast this is my understanding.

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Effectively a trim tab changes the deflection of a control surface, altering it's AOA (angle of attack). If you trim nose up, the trim tab on the elevator deflects up, lowering the elevator AOA and causing tailplane to sink, and the nose to rise. Think of clicking the trim up on your hat switch as effectively pulling back on the stick slightly without letting go, this will cause the nose to keep rising and depending on your airspeed will rise higher and higher, up to the point that the forces between the lowering of the tail and the pull of gravity on the front end of the aircraft are balanced.

 

Atleast this is my understanding.

 

This is a state of mind which we were slapped out of every lesson again during flight academy. :D

Some trainees develop the habit to steer with trim. If you want to pitch up slightly you trim and voila. Wrong! Trim is to cancel out control force and make you stop fighting the controls.

You set the attitude with your stick or control column, then trim. Not the other way around.

 

So I might be nitpicking here, blame my instructor, but trim is not used to set deflection of a control surface. It used to keep the deflection where you want it.

Slight difference, but once it clicks it makes your understanding better, I found.

 

And I *think* you have it backwards. If you trim nose up, the elevator need to go up so the trim tab goes downwards to keep it trimmed there. But that's quickly from the top of my head.


Edited by Yskonyn

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The way trim is used in a real aircraft is as follows:

 

Use the flight controls and power settings to put the aircraft into the orientation that you want. For example - level flight at 10,000 ft and 250 kts. Then use trim to relieve any control pressure that you feel.

 

So if you find that you need forward pressure on the stick to maintain 10,000 ft at 250 kts, use nose-down trim to relieve that pressure while using the flight controls to maintain 10,000 ft. Once the aircraft is trimmed correctly you can take your hands off the flight controls and the aircraft will maintain the attitude and altitude that you have set.

 

Trim should be used often. In a real aircraft you do not want to constantly have to apply control pressure to the stick (or yoke). It can be fatiguing and distracting.

 

An aircraft can be trimmed in level flight, a bank, a climb, or a descent, or a combination of these.

 

Do not "fly" with trim. Don't use trim to change the aircrafts attitude. Use the flight controls to change the attitude, and then trim to relieve any flight control pressure for hands-free flying.

 

Whenever you change aircraft speed or orientation, you need to re-trim.

 

The DCS A-10C Manual is not correct in the way they describe trimming.

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Thanks for re-phrasing what I wrote down above. It's always nice to have similar explanations in different words.

Additionally to 'Whenever you change aircraft speed or orientation, you need to re-trim': It's a misconception to think that during climb or descent one might leave the trim alone because afterall you're climbing or descending with a constant speed.

Indicated airspeed is indeed constant, but true airspeed is not due to changing air pressure with altitude. Hence the need to keep trimming the aircraft.

Just a tiny sidenote. ;)

 

But I don't understand your last part;

If you mean the paragraphs I quoted, Chops, then I disagree. There is nothing wrong what that explanation. It's a technical summary of how the system works.

Could you elaborate on how this would be wrong?


Edited by Yskonyn

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Just refering to page 481 in the Manual

 

"The trim switch is used to move the control stick to a new "neutral "position. For example: if the nose wants to raise, you can input some nose down trim that will move the stick forward to a new neutral position."

 

This is not accurate, and gives the wrong impression of how trim works.


Edited by Chops
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Ah right. Yes that seems to be copied/paste from the BS manual. :)

 

One thing to note in the sim, though, is that (even on the ground) trim input will adjust the control surface itself, not the tab. Obviously an abstraction in the model.

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One thing that I have noticed while trimming the DCS A-10 is that the trim inputs are excessive or "course".

 

One click of the trim button/switch results in quite an attitude change. The real aircraft that I have flown do not behave that way, and I have flown everything from piper cadets to corporate jets. One click of the trim button should result in much less movement.

 

Wondering if there is a way to fine-tune trim within the sim?

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So I might be nitpicking here, blame my instructor, but trim is not used to set deflection of a control surface. It used to keep the deflection where you want it.

Slight difference, but once it clicks it makes your understanding better, I found.

 

Incorrect...

 

From the real manual....

 

 

"Artificial stick feel is provided by devices located close to the



elevator actuators and a bobweight located in the white area.

Trim is provided by two independent, electrical circuits: the normal

pitch/roll trim control circuit and the emergency override

pitch/roll trim circuit. These circuits lead to a trim motor which

acts on the artificial feel device to reposition the actuators and

move the entire elevator surface. If both hydraulic systems are

lost, pitch trim inputs will automatically operate the two elevator

trim tabs via two additional trim motors to provide pitch trim."

 

 

Hense why I posted what I posted on page 1. ;)

 

There is nothing wrong with the model....

 

Also to note, we are talking about military aircraft here many, many do not have trim tabs to begin with. In which case the surfaces are the only means of trim. Trying to compare military aircraft to civilian counterparts is the wrong thought process.

 


Edited by Rainmaker
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Dummy's Fix

 

Me bein in that catagory, here's what I worked out. With my lowly Logi Extreme stick I first mapped direct trim control to the the stick by assigning button 11. I hold this down and am able to roughly trim the aircraft> and I mean roughly! Looking for a lighter touch I was just now able to assign the hat up, down left and right with RCNTR modifier and now have a much more workable trim. Hurray for me!:pilotfly:

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Hum... so is it the actuation of the stick that moves the control surfaces.. or is it the actuation of the surfaces that causes the stick to move (I'm assuming here the Hog isn't FBW)?

 

Either way, yes... you trim pitch for speed, throttle for altitude, is how it goes as I recall. :)

 

Stupid physics, so much simpler to shove that throttle forward to go faster, and pull up to climb. :)

 

Itkovian

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Incorrect...

 

From the real manual....

 

 

"Artificial stick feel is provided by devices located close to the



elevator actuators and a bobweight located in the white area.

Trim is provided by two independent, electrical circuits: the normal

pitch/roll trim control circuit and the emergency override

pitch/roll trim circuit. These circuits lead to a trim motor which

acts on the artificial feel device to reposition the actuators and

move the entire elevator surface. If both hydraulic systems are

lost, pitch trim inputs will automatically operate the two elevator

trim tabs via two additional trim motors to provide pitch trim."

 

 

Hense why I posted what I posted on page 1. ;)

 

There is nothing wrong with the model....

 

Also to note, we are talking about military aircraft here many, many do not have trim tabs to begin with. In which case the surfaces are the only means of trim. Trying to compare military aircraft to civilian counterparts is the wrong thought process.

 

 

True indeed. Thanks. :)

My reply that you quoted, however, was a reply on the quoted text in my post where the user mentioned trim tabs. I was shooting at the general workings of trimming with tabs. Not specifically aimed at the Hog. I just assumed it would work the same which it does not aparently.

But of you have the trim motors deflecting the actual surface why would you need trim tabs to begin with? Are you sure you are not refering to some abnormal situation?

 

EDIT: as I re read that paragraph you quoted I realised something; do I state correctly that the trim tabs on the elevator are only used in an emergency situation with loss of both hydraulic systems? Interesting...

Isnt it nice all the good discussions we can have because of a computer based sim! ;)


Edited by Yskonyn

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”Pilots do not get paid for what they do daily, but they get paid for what they are capable of doing.

However, if pilots would need to do daily what they are capable of doing, nobody would dare to fly anymore.”

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This turned into a bit of a paper. Important points italicized. The main focus is pitch control, but lateral (aileron) control is essentially the same, just in a less changing context.

 

First off, Chops is the one who got it right.

 

Use the flight controls and power settings to put the aircraft into the orientation that you want. For example - level flight at 10,000 ft and 250 kts. Then use trim to relieve any control pressure that you feel.

 

Think of trim as a helper to relieve the pilot of large and/or constant control forces. On many gliders, the trim is simply a bungee which can be made to pull on the stick with a variable force. Early implementations of trim surfaced during WWI. The planes were built for low speed flying and manoeuvring, which meant you had to push the stick forward to stay level at high speed during cruise. Pilots solved this with a bungee cord attached to the panel which they could hook to the stick. Voila! Instant trim!

 

This, however, has its drawbacks. The elevator position, and hence the stick position, effectively determines the angle of attack the aircraft will seek. Google for "static stability" for more background reading - there's plenty.

 

The stick (and the connected elevator) is an angle of attack selector.

 

A constant angle of attack means that for a constant airspeed, lift will remain constant. Another way to put it is that as lift is (more or less) constant due to the non-changing weight of the aircraft, an aircraft will when stick-fixed maintain a constant airspeed. It will do this through adjusting the rate of climb, either at once or through a series of climbs and descents at decreasing maximum climb/sink rates (google "dynamic stability")*.

 

A constant angle of attack means an aircraft which will seek a constant indicated airspeed.

 

This stick-fixed behaviour is desirable.

 

However, the stick force required for a given elevator deflection varies with airspeed. You need a larger force to keep the stick forward in a constant position at a higher airspeed. With the bungee cord solution, the trim force is constant. Hence the stick position will vary with varying airspeed. Not really what you want for trouble-free hands-off flying.

 

Ingenious minds considered this problem and trim evolved. The trim tab was invented. Rather than pushing the stick forward manually to make the elevator go down, or have a bungee attached to pull the stick forward, someone decided to use the same aerodynamic forces which pulled on the bungee cord to replace the bungee cord. If you have a trim tab at the trailing edge of the control, it will apply a force to the control surface as it is deflected. This force will be proportional to the airspeed - just as the force on the main control surface. As the trim tab is deflected, the position the control surface returns to if left to move freely in the airflow is changed. Remember that the elevator position determines the angle of attack. The trim tab changes the position the elevator will return to if you take your hands off the stick.

 

Trim tab deflection changes the stable hands-off angle of attack of the aircraft.

 

Of course, to make the nose go up (increased angle of attack), the elevator has to go up (stick aft) and the tab has to push the elevator up. This means the trim tab has to deflect down in order to make the elevator go up. This is, as we have seen in this thread, counter-intuitive to some people.

 

To raise the nose through elevator up deflection, the elevator trim tab deflects down.

 

Now, as aircraft got bigger and faster, the control forces increased beyond what humans could achieve through control wires and pushrods. One way of countering this was to introduce servo tabs. These are similar to trim tabs, but automatically move as the control surface moves. As the elevator goes up, the servo tab always goes down in order to assist the pilot to move the control surface against the air flow. There have also been light aircraft where anti-servo tabs, operating in the opposite fashion, were used to increase the control forces and achieve better control harmony. Some aircraft have no direct connection between the controls in the cockpit and the control surface, relying on servo tabs to fly the control surface which then flies the aircraft.

 

This too has drawbacks, so eventually powered controls were introduced. Hydraulic actuators move the control surfaces in accordance with commands from the pilot.

 

All fine and dandy, except for the fact that the amount of control surface deflection needed, desired and allowable changes with aircraft speed. This didn't use to be a problem. The pilot's limited muscle force automatically limited control surface deflection at higher airspeeds, meaning x Newtons of control force created a smaller control surface deflection at high speed than at low speed. The physics work out so that the anticipated aircraft response to a given applied control force is reasonably similar across the speed range, albeit with a much smaller control deflection at the higher airspeed**. The controls are loose at low airspeed, and as speed increases they feel as if they are stuck in a concrete block. The aerodynamic forces on the control surfaces stop the pilot from applying large control deflections which would overstress the aircraft.

 

With powered controls, the pilot could move the stick full aft at any airspeed and the elevator would go full up. At high airspeed, this would mean instant disaster due to violently over-controlling the aircraft. The pilot also lost the feel for the aircraft and airspeed normally given through the feel of the forces required to move the controls.

 

This was solved through artificial control forces, or q feel (as the letter q is normally used to designate dynamic pressure, a fancier name for the part of air pressure felt on the deflected control surfaces due to airspeed) was introduced. Actuators are used to increase the forces required to move the controls proportional to the airspeed, just as they would be increased by air pressure acting on the control surface in a non-powered control path.

 

(Another method, commonly seen in FBW aircraft, is to have a spring loaded control, with constant control force for a given deflection, but to limit the deflection of the control surface for a given control deflection depending on the airspeed.)

 

Obviously, as powered controls negate the forces created by the airspeed on the control surfaces, they also negate the forces created by the trim tabs, rendering them useless for trimming.

 

With powered controls, trim has to be introduced by somehow biasing the control system actuators instead.

 

This is what we have in the A-10. Powered controls, with a trim system to change the control surface deflection at which the control force felt by the pilot is zero.

 

However, pilots still need to be able to fly the aircraft if the hydraulics go out. Thus, the trim tabs are still there but are only used for trimming if the hydraulics are lost. In normal operation, they augment the hydraulics which also means they will be in more or less the right position if a transfer to a non-powered mode has to be done.

 

On the A-10, the elevator tabs will act as trim tabs in manual reversion (lost hydraulics) mode, while the aileron tabs will act as servo tabs.

 

No trim tabs on the rudders, as they should normally never be out of center for normal flight. Lose an engine with unpowered rudders and you can expect to have one tired leg upon landing, and try to find a runway without too much of a crosswind.

 

Additionally to 'Whenever you change aircraft speed or orientation, you need to re-trim': It's a misconception to think that during climb or descent one might leave the trim alone because afterall you're climbing or descending with a constant speed.

Indicated airspeed is indeed constant, but true airspeed is not due to changing air pressure with altitude. Hence the need to keep trimming the aircraft.

 

As with most things (except flutter and navigation), indicated airspeed is what matters.

 

You trim for an indicated airspeed, which the aircraft will then essentially maintain if left to its own devices (hands-off flight).

 

Cheers,

Fred

 

*) Some aircraft are dynamically unstable and will climb/descend ever more violently. That's not a nice behaviour at all, and beyond the scope of this discussion.

 

**) What you are really looking for is essentially a constant G load for a given control force, which makes things nice and predictable. You know what happens when you apply a given force to the stick, regardless of airspeed.


Edited by effte
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Excellent post, Effte. Thank you for the detailed explanation.

 

It's a shame the HOTAS Warthog isn't Force Feedback, as it would make for a more accurate while trimming (though it wouldn't be as much of an advantage as it is in Black Shark).

 

Itkovian

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