Question about НПП-МК on the Mig-21

Good research!

Your new image, per the DCS: MiG-21bis manual as well, I believe is correct.

I don´t pretend to correct anyone. Sorry if i sound to much confident about this issue.

It´s only I´m very excited with one of my all time favourite planes and i want to be sure about how it works every detail and instrument to learn how to fly properly.

Finally if i´m correct, the HSI from the Su-25A also is working inverted and it could be fixed the same way.

So, the release is near and i can wait any official statement about NPP-MK and other "toys" the Fishbed hide inside.

Thanks.

I don´t pretend to correct anyone. Sorry if i sound to much confident about this issue.

 

It´s only I´m very excited with one of my all time favourite planes and i want to be sure about how it works every detail and instrument to learn how to fly properly.

 

Finally if i´m correct, the HSI from the Su-25A also is working inverted and it could be fixed the same way.

 

So, the release is near and i can wait any official statement about NPP-MK and other "toys" the Fishbed hide inside.

 

Thanks.

I might've actually spoken too soon (I misread the relevant paragraph).

I'll be sure to ask Novak to clarify once he is available.

Thanks Cobra, i´m really grateful.

hello guys,

has anyone news concerning the top and tail of the NPP-MK needles?

I love piloting the vanilla SU-25a and would also like to understand the proper function and use of this instrument.

As known in the SU-25a the needles behave opposite as the should do concerning to the Mig-21 flight manual.

Sorry for of-topic in the Mig-21 forum but i did a lot of research so far but it`s hard to find any information. So @ Esac_mirmidon thx for your research! :thumbup:

an additional question i have touching this instrument:

When flying the Su-25a the NPP-MK guides you to every waypoint you set. The steerpoints can be locatetd everywhere - in the middle of the ocean for example - no matter if there is a NDB or not. The NPP-MK leads you to this coordinates.

Is the RSBN capable of doing this in real life as well or is this just a simplification for the SU-25a? When flying the Mig-21, is it possible to set such "virtual" waypoints as well?

thanks and regards!

michaff

hello guys,

 

has anyone news concerning the top and tail of the NPP-MK needles?

I love piloting the vanilla SU-25a and would also like to understand the proper function and use of this instrument.

As known in the SU-25a the needles behave opposite as the should do concerning to the Mig-21 flight manual.

 

Sorry for of-topic in the Mig-21 forum but i did a lot of research so far but it`s hard to find any information. So @ Esac_mirmidon thx for your research! :thumbup:

 

an additional question i have touching this instrument:

When flying the Su-25a the NPP-MK guides you to every waypoint you set. The steerpoints can be locatetd everywhere - in the middle of the ocean for example - no matter if there is a NDB or not. The NPP-MK leads you to this coordinates.

Is the RSBN capable of doing this in real life as well or is this just a simplification for the SU-25a? When flying the Mig-21, is it possible to set such "virtual" waypoints as well?

 

thanks and regards!

 

michaff

I think Su-25a's is simplified. From Bunyap's video 12, you can see that the NPP needle will not follow the WPs preset in ME.

guess you meant that video:

In this video the circle-shaped end of the needle behaves like the Su-25a - it points towards your destination.

I found some time ago this detailed hand-out about russian navigation-systems:

http://samdimdesign.free.fr/HTML/An24/docs24/An-24RV_v2.htm

at about the half of the page the topic comes to the RSBN system.

Some different work modes "azimuth from" and "azimuth to" are mentioned.

Maybe that woould explain the opposite behaviour of the needles in the SU-24 videos postet by Esac_mirmidon. After all it`s a quit complex topic. There are different modes the NPP-MK can be used. Unfortunatly I dont get this complete as well...

regards

Michaff.

In your first video. Minute 09:00

The RSBN system is tuned for Senaki that is behind the Mig-21, and indicated in the Range dial ( From 11 km to 12 Km etc ) So the Mig-21 is flying away FROM THE BEACON and the Circle is at 12 o clock, and the thin side ata 6 o clockl.

So the circle is the tail, not the head.

Also, minute 13:00

Changed Beacon, Heading 310, 175 km.

The thin part of the needle points to the new beacon, the range dial is now 175 - 174 -173 Km, so the Mig-21 is flying TO THE BEACON. Circle at 6 o clock, thin part at 12 o clock.

So....

Cheers.

Michaff.

 

In your first video. Minute 09:00

 

The RSBN system is tuned for Senaki that is behind the Mig-21, and indicated in the Range dial ( From 11 km to 12 Km etc ) So the Mig-21 is flying away FROM THE BEACON and the Circle is at 12 o clock, and the thin side ata 6 o clockl.

 

So the circle is the tail, not the head.

 

Also, minute 13:00

 

Changed Beacon, Heading 310, 175 km.

 

The thin part of the needle points to the new beacon, the range dial is now 175 - 174 -173 Km, so the Mig-21 is flying TO THE BEACON. Circle at 6 o clock, thin part at 12 o clock.

 

So....

 

Cheers.

No, you may miss something, at 8:50, the NPP is working with ARC not RSBN, and ARC is set to 3-I-3, which is pointed by the circle side. But the RSBN channel is set to Senaki, so only the distance indicator show the distance to Senaki while the needle to the NDB station in front.

I miss this part, thanks uboat.

RSBN is ranging from Senaki, but the needle is working as a RMI for the ARK system.

I´ve thought this video had updated promo version wit the needles corrected.

Thanks uboat.

I miss this part, thanks uboat.

 

RSBN is ranging from Senaki, but the needle is working as a RMI for the ARK system.

 

I´ve thought this video had updated promo version wit the needles corrected.

 

Thanks uboat.

I don't know how it works in the final version, but for this promo version, circle is head, and I believe this would be kept in final version. Since course is completely tuned by pilot, so to me either side can be tip, once you know what you are doing. Well, nice discussion since the beginning of this thread. :thumbup:

guess you meant that video:

 

In this video the circle-shaped end of the needle behaves like the Su-25a - it points towards your destination.

I found some time ago this detailed hand-out about russian navigation-systems:

 

http://samdimdesign.free.fr/HTML/An24/docs24/An-24RV_v2.htm

 

at about the half of the page the topic comes to the RSBN system.

Some different work modes "azimuth from" and "azimuth to" are mentioned.

Maybe that woould explain the opposite behaviour of the needles in the SU-24 videos postet by Esac_mirmidon. After all it`s a quit complex topic. There are different modes the NPP-MK can be used. Unfortunatly I dont get this complete as well...

 

regards

For this DCS mig21bis, I think we just need to follow the manual, otherwise you may never be able to find home :D

Or turn on the radio and follow the music back home ¡¡

I think Su-25a's is simplified. From Bunyap's video 12, you can see that the NPP needle will not follow the WPs preset in ME.

NPP is just an indicator and can work in different modes of operation. It can be used for Radio navigation (this is the RSBN system - Radio technical system for short range navigation) or it can be connected to an inertial navigation and display navigation data from virtual waypoints. Su-25 uses IKV-1 system for inertial navigation, which is working with DISS-7 doppler navigation and V-144 onboard computer. In Su-25 the system can have 3 virtual waypoints pre-programmed and 4 target waypoints (airfields). Basically there are only 2 things simplified in DCS World for Su-25. First is that you can have more than 3 way-points and the second is that it switches between the waypoints automatically.

NPP is just an indicator and can work in different modes of operation. It can be used for Radio navigation (this is the RSBN system - Radio technical system for short range navigation) or it can be connected to an inertial navigation and display navigation data from virtual waypoints. Su-25 uses IKV-1 system for inertial navigation, which is working with DISS-7 doppler navigation and V-144 onboard computer. In Su-25 the system can have 3 virtual waypoints pre-programmed and 4 target waypoints (airfields). Basically there are only 2 things simplified in DCS World for Su-25. First is that you can have more than 3 way-points and the second is that it switches between the waypoints automatically.

thank you very much

thx Arrow!

That explains a lot.

@Esac_mirmidon:

Please dont get me wrong - me intention was not pointing out that you`re talking bullshit in your previous posts.

After watching the Mig-21 video, my confusion grows, cause I share your argumentation about the end of the needles too!

Maybe it depends on the working mode the NPP-MK is in which end is top and tail...

regards

Don't worry michaff.

This is a great discussion and i really appreciate every post and every opinion. I' m very interested in this navigation system. I think all of us are helping in a certain way to improve the Mig-21 and also helping in a wider knowledge about the fishbed.

Your new image, per the DCS: MiG-21bis manual as well, I believe is correct.

 

If this is correct, why does the tail show in the direction of the beacon in DCS:MiG-21bis? I understand it should be the other way round... just did the nav tuts and it was a bit confusing, especially the box pattern thing with those 2, 3 and 4 marks. Didn't get which needle to read that off.

If this is correct, why does the tail show in the direction of the beacon in DCS:MiG-21bis? I understand it should be the other way round... just did the nav tuts and it was a bit confusing, especially the box pattern thing with those 2, 3 and 4 marks. Didn't get which needle to read that off.

Everything will be clear once next patch released ;)

my guess is that it depends wether you use the NPP-MK as RMI or in conjunction with RSBN wich end is top and tail.

who has the mig 21 bis flight manual, please check at page 45, bullet points a) and c)

a)

aircraft present azimuth from the navigatinoal bearing, to be read off the tail, wich is thickened and provided with a circle of the relative bearing pointer against the moveable scale, the pointer tail is sometimes called "azimuth end" of the pointer

c)

navigational bearing relative bearing (or homing beacon relative bearing, when the pointer is connected to the radio compass), to be read off the tip (thin end) of the realtive bearing pointer, against the fixed scale.

Cause RSBN provides like VOR azimuth information, the "azimuth end" with the circle directs to the RSBSN station - and so it could be "misunderstand" as top.

guys who already pilot the Mig 21 bis could check this out easily; once homing on a NDB, then to an RSBN station - if i am right, the needle should behave different.

the number markings beside the desired course needle are used for the pattern. They indicate, when you have to fence in for downwind, base leg, an final turn.

After take off at a abaout 7km off the runway treshold you fence in 90° for crosswind leg. The desired course needle is set as the runway heading, the relative bearing needle ( the one with circle and thin end) is set to the airfiel station. When you are on crosswind course, you fence in for downwind in that moment the relative bearing needle touches the "2". That way you handle the base leg and final turn using the "3" and "4" respectivly.

Pattern is performed at an altitude of about 600m and TAS of about 550km/h when I remember the manual right.

http://aviationglossary.com/wp-content/uploads/Aircraft-landing-chart.jpg

regards

michaff

I'm confused what is the head and tail for the other needle (course needle)? It is very unclear in the tutorial and manual.

Also in the ARC mode one has to follow the tail instead of the head??