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A-10 Speed/ Stalling?!


davetronic

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Hi I'm just wondering if anyone can point out if I'm doing something wrong here because it's driving me a little nuts. I know the A-10 isn't a fighter and it's not meant to do anything too crazy but I just cannot re-create the performance that you see in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5MQk_56GwY. Especially that slow half loop that starts at 2:08, when I try something like I either pull back as violently as I can without getting a stall warning in order to make it to the top of the loop before falling out of the sky (which often happens), or if I did it as gently as in the video, I would've stalled about halfway through. I'm making sure that I have no weapons, ammo, or chaff & flares onboard as well as making sure I only have about a 1/3 of a tank of fuel and yet I'm still stalling quicker than a Cessna.

Am I missing something??

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All these demos are flown as light as possible.

 

If you watch this video:

 

... you'll see that even some of the pylons are removed. Plus, you have to see how energy is managed, very much like a roller coaster.

 

If you ever watch an aerobatic glider you'll see just how well energy management can be put to use with no propulsion at all.

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All these demos are flown as light as possible.

 

If you watch this video:

 

... you'll see that even some of the pylons are removed. Plus, you have to see how energy is managed, very much like a roller coaster.

 

If you ever watch an aerobatic glider you'll see just how well energy management can be put to use with no propulsion at all.

 

good feedback. :thumbup:

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Thanks KLR Rico, that is good feedback. It still feels like I'm missing something though, like in that Lakeshore airshow vid, when he first lifts off, he's pulling off into the sky like a madman, whereas I'm straddling the ground for a good mile. I mean even airliners have better takeoff performance than me in the A-10. That slow roll into that loop would've had me falling out of the sky at 5:18 for sure. Maybe it is the extra stuff they remove for airshows that makes the difference, it just doesn't feel right.

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Try taking off with only 20% fuel and no weapons to drag you down. I noticed big difference.

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Hi I'm just wondering if anyone can point out if I'm doing something wrong here because it's driving me a little nuts. I know the A-10 isn't a fighter and it's not meant to do anything too crazy but I just cannot re-create the performance that you see in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5MQk_56GwY. Especially that slow half loop that starts at 2:08, when I try something like I either pull back as violently as I can without getting a stall warning in order to make it to the top of the loop before falling out of the sky (which often happens), or if I did it as gently as in the video, I would've stalled about halfway through. I'm making sure that I have no weapons, ammo, or chaff & flares onboard as well as making sure I only have about a 1/3 of a tank of fuel and yet I'm still stalling quicker than a Cessna.

Am I missing something??

 

The sim version does feel underpowered to me as well...

 

 

What is your take off weight when trying to do aerobatic maneuvers?

 

You're not gonna be able to do half the stuff in the Tach. Demo's with weapons, pylons and pods.

 

it's not just the weight, it's the drag and wing loading.

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Agreed! Even with weapons the real Warthog is aerobatic and quick responding. (obviously not as much as a clean version)

 

Yeah that's what I thought as well, glad to hear I'm not the only one struggling.

 

According to the Mission Editor I have 4436lbs of fuel and otherwise the plane is empty which is 24967lbs, so 29403lbs in total.

 

Is there any way to remove anything else? Like I mentioned I have nothing on the wings (I don't know if the pylons can be removed or not), no ammo and no counter measures.

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This might help providing info on the maneuvers on the video. This is the Aircraft Demonstration manual.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3_5/publication/afi11-246v1/afi11-246v1.pdf

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To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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To be honest I don't think that the DCS A-10 is underpowered to the degree you cannot replicate the behavior of the demo performance. What you need to understand is that flying an airframe to near its fullest potential means as near as can be perfect technique and execution. The fact that with no stores and low fuel you feel like you can't get off the runway with enough gettupandgo tells me maybe your stick or your style is wrong.

 

Firstly, I used to use a modest curvature on my stick axes and after removing it suddenly I could roll so much faster and pitch so much more aggressively and then I suddenly said "Oh, so I can roll like that guy in the Air Show demo of the A-10".

 

There is a document freely available on the internet that contains all the maneuvers and parameters for their execution for every authorized airshow by the USAF. This includes the A-10. It has entry airspeed and altitude parameters and the same for exit. EDIT. mvsgas just ninja'd me with this exact doc.

 

Most of the aggressive maneuvers are done at at least 325 IAS. This airspeed is extremely important. If you were to try and do an immelman at even 315 knots you might stall whereas at 325 you're good.

 

The real A-10 is really thrust poor and thats something a real A-10 pilot would tell you. What you also need to understand is that the demo pilots are pros in their airframe and as such can get every bit of energy out of them to make the plane do what they want it to do. Whether there are limitations to what the DCS plane can do is not something I can speak to, but what I can say is that the human behind the computer screen has to overcome a lot to even begin to fly like a real one so trying to imitate the actions of a top pilot doing advanced maneuvers isn't something that should be easily done and even then is subject to overcoming all the limitations of computer simming.

 

Check your gear, check your axis settings, and check yourself. I only usually get better once I realize how awful I have been doing something I previously felt really really confident and comfortable with. If you can get Tacview that would be an immense benefit to your practice.

 

What is your stick and rudder set up btw? Do you use a curve on any of your axes?

 

EDIT #2.

 

Btw, this video is somewhat related I think and is interesting to boot.

 


Edited by P*Funk
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Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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Thanks msvgas, that looks very useful.

Yeah I just have rudder and stick set to default settings apart from creating a bit of a bigger null zone on the rudder axis. Apart from deleting the rudder axis input for the stick I haven't really touched anything else.

Getting to 325 IAS is definitely a struggle for me, I mean I have to spend a good couple of minutes climbing and then really aggressively diving to get anywhere near that. So I've definitely been attempting some of those maneuvers a little too ambitiously.

And you're right, I mean these guys doing the demo's are the best of the best so I can't really expect to match the way they handle the aircraft. I guess I just need to work at it and pay more attention to what I'm doing with the stick.

 

P.s. that pilot is a genius, with some clear traces of insanity haha, I've never seen anything like that before.

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Maybe double check your throttle axis' endpoints are good. A while ago I kept wondering why I'd constantly roll unless I was holding the brake, turned out that my throttle at idle was reading ~15% in game. Easily fixed with the settings, and if you're not getting max power, that could be the problem.

 

I did a quick flight with the plane clean w/3.5K fuel yesterday and didn't have any trouble getting to 320+ KIAS and doing cuban 8's, 60 deg climbs to 4K feet, 6G turns, etc....:dunno:

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Okay I've noticed a couple of things:

 

1) The engines max out at about 91% RPM at full throttle. I always just assumed this was a natural limitation but maybe this is part of the problem? Am I supposed to be able to get them to 100%?

 

2) One thing I've noticed that's particularly strange is that I seem to get better performance when I launch a mission that starts on the runway or in the air, even with some weapons on the wings! Perhaps I'm doing something/ missing something during startup procedures? :/

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Guest Izoul123

I get what people are saying. I think it's a half truth between both sides really.

 

What I'm saying below is MY views. Take it all with a grain of salt.

 

The videos we see of air shows in civ settings, these are A10's running ultra light, obviously no weapons/pylons, not even 1 round for the cannon weighing her down. A lot of people forget even the weight of the GAU8 full load of rounds alone. Fuel load is probably pretty light to, to provide best performance for the pilot doing the demo. If you've flow this sim on those settings, they do seem 'close' to that, but yes, it seems 'the real deal' might be a bit more 'powerful/faster' are the right words. I can understand that seeing the A10C fly first hand in real life. (more on that later)

 

The problem is in 'the sim', most players are flying with probably heavier than any normal combat mission would EVER use mode, unless N.Korea & China overtook Mexico and started running up the border on some insane ground rush....then maybe we'd see the load-outs most players use when playing the sim. It becomes and issue of 'the player has x amount of time, want's to maximize 'kills' so he/she loads it hunting for bear, and the bear's parents, and the bear cave, and the bear breeding grounds on top of that to carpet bomb it with good measure, and then follow up on gun runs of the bear's fishing grounds on the way home, with fuel to spare after combat maneuvers. In other words, we want our cake and want to eat it as sim players 'maximizing' the time we fly/kill shit. That's understandable, and I think we all are 'guilty' of that to some degree when playing the sim, and this is where the discrepancies come alive. We often don't see footage of an A10C wildly overloaded in combat. It's not practical, nor does it fit the 'budget' for the war/mission at hand, so they are 'nerfed/loaded light'. ANYONE who works for a corporation should get that, as is our military contrary to movies. They don't load A10's with every item on the menu, they load them light/fast with enough/not even enough to get the mission done.

 

However. I will say that after staying at my uncle's house in AZ (2011-2013), and taking time to drive close to Davis-Monthan and watching A10C's in that area, hell even from his back yard, I too found myself saying "Holy shit, those ****ers are MOVING"....and I mean I'd watch them out in the desert doing things that I would say would probably cause 'stalls' in the simulation we so dearly love and play...ok, maybe that is an exaggeration, but the thought entertained my mind after much DCS AC10 sim time. Hope that makes sense.

 

Who are you to say/evaluate you ask?:

Now, I should say I'm a 37 year old male with tons of flight experience, grew up in an aviation family/friends, and it is QUITE possible it's just distortion/false management of me being able to que it in air vs horizon/measurements, I will not deny that, but I'd say the flight model we have is purposely nerfed, not to an extreme mind you, but nerfed vs real life permanence in the sim. Again, this is all hard/wildly open to 'perspective' as I'm not in the cockpit the fine folks flying those dream machines in AZ in real life, but yes, I can see how the 'suspicion' claims would come up from folks after seeing the A10C in air with my own eyes on training maneuvers.

 

I would again, comfortably bet money the model we see/fly in DCS is 'slightly' nerfed to what the sim replicates vs real life statistics. I know again there are TONS of factors that make it tough to replicate the model in a PC sim vs real life, and it's never the same, that's obvious. Part of it could simply be the 'modeling' in the DCS engine that doesn't simulate real life human 'visual' conception of 'speed/etc'. Also, keep in mind, when you 'play the sim' it's 1st person, most 'real life' video you see is 3rd person. Speed is not the same obviously in both to gauge, and is even more so distorted when going from real life to a pc monitor.

 

Part of it could for sure be that we are not using actual A10C specs due to military classification for obvious reasons. That to me is almost a no brainer, and wouldn't shock me at all if 'the veil' was dropped saying 'sorry, you were flying a 'close to, but not real numbers machine in your civ version'.

 

Either way, I think it's more in favor of people seeing these video's of lightly loaded A10's, but then loading one on the runway in the sim to the point the tires might burst of takeoff and saying "Why can't I fly like the youtube or liveleak vid!?"

 

Answer:

Replication of most real life missions/load outs probably wouldn't yield as many kills/be very attractive to the simmer wanting to 'blow shit up' en mass.

 

BUT: I'd still agree, the real A10C has a bit more 'uuumph' than we'll be 'allowed' to see in this sim. God damn wartime.

 

-Izoul-

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Okay I've noticed a couple of things:

 

1) The engines max out at about 91% RPM at full throttle. I always just assumed this was a natural limitation but maybe this is part of the problem? Am I supposed to be able to get them to 100%?

 

2) One thing I've noticed that's particularly strange is that I seem to get better performance when I launch a mission that starts on the runway or in the air, even with some weapons on the wings! Perhaps I'm doing something/ missing something during startup procedures? :/

 

1) There are several thread on the forums about this. The RPM you are looking at is Fan or N1 ( first compressor) RPM, which is normal on full power at around 91%

 

2) You would need to post tracks so other would be able to see and compare. Possibly finding the problem.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Part of it could for sure be that we are not using actual A10C specs due to military classification for obvious reasons. That to me is almost a no brainer, and wouldn't shock me at all if 'the veil' was dropped saying 'sorry, you were flying a 'close to, but not real numbers machine in your civ version'.

 

LOL, yes of course. After Project Blue Book and the Warren Commission, the cultural belief that A-10s are slow and thrust poor is one of the government's greatest propaganda coups for misinformation!

 

:smoke:

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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