DCS Mirage 2000C Discussion

[jojo]

I agree, I too would really like to hear from the Devs on this. Even if this wasn't originally planned I think it would be crucial to increasingly the viability of the mirage against the other aircraft in DCS. Therefore I hope they will decide to add it. 18 flares just will not cut it, my MiG 21 can carry more that that! Heck, with my MiG being able to carry more missiles and flares, I should think the Mirage might be seriously threatened by it without at least this countermeasure upgrade!

 

On average, MiG 21 will be dead meat before Mirage needs to expanse its flare :smartass:

 

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Edited November 25, 2015 by jojo

[Gliptal]

Why is that anyway? What was the mental process behind the very low flare count at the designing stage?

[Dahlbeck]

BVR duels maybe?

[jojo]

16 Flares, but 112 Chaffs. I'd say they thought more about BVR fight than dogfight.

 

Moreover it's a rather small aircraft. There is not so much available free space.

 

The first Mirage 2000 were delivered without SPIRALE system (integrated decoy system).

 

The plane is what it is. Don't project your fantasies on it :D

[Python]

Why is that anyway? What was the mental process behind the very low flare count at the designing stage?

 

 

They're French! They made the aircraft beautiful and then worried about fitting things such as flares in it....

 

I kid of course, I guess they were planning for long range encounters, or simply couldn't fit them in.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On average, MiG 21 will be dead meat before Mirage needs to expanse its flare :smartass:

 

 

 

...You take that back. :mad:

[Darkwolf]

Don't worry, all those bragging about the mirage remember me how the F-15C were braging a year back from now :music_whistling:

 

They'll figure out the truth quite soon - when hanging to a virtual chute :joystick:

[jojo]

...You take that back. :mad:

 

:lol:

 

Sorry guys, too easy, I couldn't resist :D

 

Don't worry, all those bragging about the mirage remember me how the F-15C were braging a year back from now :music_whistling:

 

They'll figure out the truth quite soon - when hanging to a virtual chute :joystick:

 

To tell the truth, I was almost missing this debate :smilewink:

Edited November 25, 2015 by jojo

[Fer_Fer]

Don't worry, all those bragging about the mirage remember me how the F-15C were braging a year back from now :music_whistling:

 

They'll figure out the truth quite soon - when hanging to a virtual chute :joystick:

 

I'd welcome that.

the first 99 times you get shot down.

the 100th time, you know their tricks, and then its their turn :)

 

Besides, meeting better pilots is what makes it interesting

[jojo]

Few air forces can survive 99 losses :smartass:

 

 

Just kidding with you guys...but don't forget it's not a fat twin engine turkey :smilewink:

[Hook47]

Don't worry, all those bragging about the mirage remember me how the F-15C were braging a year back from now :music_whistling:

 

They'll figure out the truth quite soon - when hanging to a virtual chute :joystick:

 

Darn right, underestimating is a mistake I often exploit in the MiG 21. I think the Fishbed will be more of a challenge for the the Mirage than people think, particularly in that if the BVR shots miss (which the often do) the MiG may very likely have the upper hand in the merge, having more missiles and more flares

[OnlyforDCS]

Real world flares are not magic, missile eating, artifacts from the 7th dimension, unlike what we have now in DCS. The Mirage C is an interceptor first and foremost, if you are getting into situations with it where you need to expend a lot of flares, you are doing it wrong. Yes this might make the plane slightly gimped in DCS single player and multiplayer at the moment, but thats just the way it is...we have to deal with it.

Edited November 26, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[Hook47]

Real world flares are not magic, missile eating, artifacts from the 7th dimension, unlike what we have now in DCS. The Mirage C is an interceptor first and foremost, if you are getting into situations with it where you need to expend a lot of flares, you are doing it wrong. Yes this might make the plane slightly gimped in DCS single player and multiplayer at the moment, but thats just the way it is...we have to deal with it.

 

What are you talking about? Flares in the real world are quite effective, and the DCS flares seem to be realistic and consistent with real world performance. What data do you base your criticism of DCS on? Please link as I would like to see.

 

Furthermore did you just state that if you end up in a merge in a M2000 you are doing it wrong? That's ridiculous. Merges are sometimes unavoidable. . . You are thinking like a pipe dreamin F-35 pipe dreamer if you think you are seriously going to be able to skate around in BVR without ending up merged

Edited November 26, 2015 by Hook47

[Hummingbird]

Darn right, underestimating is a mistake I often exploit in the MiG 21. I think the Fishbed will be more of a challenge for the the Mirage than people think, particularly in that if the BVR shots miss (which the often do) the MiG may very likely have the upper hand in the merge, having more missiles and more flares

 

Hmm... the Mirage doesn't need many flares against the MiG-21 I think, just a couple for the initial merge, after that the Mirage will be hanging around the MiG's rear end for the rest of the dogfight.

[OnlyforDCS]

 

Furthermore did you just state that if you end up in a merge in a M2000 you are doing it wrong?

 

Please stay polite and please don't put words in my mouth. I said no such thing. I said that the Mirage 2000 C is an interceptor first and foremost. It is a light fighter aircraft designed to be guided to an incoming threat by GCI radar. It only carries 4 missiles (Usually 2 BVR and 2 WVR). It's complement of flares should last it enough for one merge. It is not an air superiority fighter or an attack aircraft and doesn't need 100 flares.

 

As for flares effectiveness, that is linked a lot to missile effectiveness. Countermeasure rejection is a thing. A thing that is very simplified in DCS compared to the real world. If you don't believe me that's fine. But please stay polite and don't insult other peoples intelligence.

Edited November 26, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[TomCatMucDe]

Please stay polite and please don't put words in my mouth. I said no such thing. I said that the Mirage 2000 C is an interceptor first and foremost. It is a light fighter aircraft designed to be guided to an incoming threat by GCI radar. It only carries 4 missiles (Usually 2 BVR and 2 WVR). It's complement of flares should last it enough for one merge. It is not an air superiority fighter or an attack aircraft and doesn't need 100 flares.

 

As for flares effectiveness, that is linked a lot to missile effectiveness. Countermeasure rejection is a thing. A thing that is very simplified in DCS compared to the real world. If you don't believe me that's fine. But please stay polite and don't insult others people intelligence.

 

You are right about your facts, but wanted to point out I didn't see any insults in his post and he was polite. We are discussing and argumenting here. No need for over reacting.

[Hummingbird]

You are right about your facts, but wanted to point out I didn't see any insults in his post and he was polite. We are discussing and argumenting here. No need for over reacting.

 

His last couple of lines were abit aggressive tbh.... He didn't have to go calling him a Pipe dreaming F-35 pipe dreamer.

[Gliptal]

I also have the feeling countermesaures are a bit too effective in DCS right now.

[domini99]

I also have the feeling countermesaures are a bit too effective in DCS right now.

I wonder what's gonna happen when missiles like the Aim-132 are gonna make their way into DCS.

 

As far as I understood, they are imaging IR missiles and can "see" the aircraft and target specific areas of the aircraft like a wing or the cockpit.

 

This way, they can also "see" a flare is not the aircraft.

 

Those missiles should have really high flare resistance and thus not go for every flare it sees like the mighty R-73 does now and than.

 

AFAIK, the Maverick (both AGM-65H and AGM-65D) can also not be decoyed when used in air to air combat.

[Gliptal]

I wonder what's gonna happen when missiles like the Aim-132 are gonna make their way into DCS.

 

As far as I understood, they are imaging IR missiles and can "see" the aircraft and target specific areas of the aircraft like a wing or the cockpit.

 

This way, they can also "see" a flare is not the aircraft.

 

Those missiles should have really high flare resistance and thus not go for every flare it sees like the mighty R-73 does now and than.

 

AFAIK, the Maverick (both AGM-65H and AGM-65D) can also not be decoyed when used in air to air combat.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the mental reasoning behind ED's decision to have more effective flares than IRL, it's necessary from a gaming standpoint.

[bzhnono]

I wonder what's gonna happen when missiles like the Aim-132 are gonna make their way into DCS.

 

As far as I understood, they are imaging IR missiles and can "see" the aircraft and target specific areas of the aircraft like a wing or the cockpit.

 

This way, they can also "see" a flare is not the aircraft.

 

Those missiles should have really high flare resistance and thus not go for every flare it sees like the mighty R-73 does now and than.

 

AFAIK, the Maverick (both AGM-65H and AGM-65D) can also not be decoyed when used in air to air combat.

I'd like to show a vid of someone shooting AGM-65 in an air to air combat :)

Seems pretty hard to me

[Bacab]

I'd like to show a vid of someone shooting AGM-65 in an air to air combat :)

Seems pretty hard to me

Seems feasible against an helicopter but I won't try it. Moreover despite the scene correlation treatment I think the maverick use I still think it might be sensible to decoy.

[Dozer_4]

I also have the feeling countermesaures are a bit too effective in DCS right now.

 

I don´t.

But I also think that 16 Flares are enough ...

[TomCatMucDe]

I'd like to show a vid of someone shooting AGM-65 in an air to air combat :)

Seems pretty hard to me

 

It's pretty easy using bore mode. Place the target on the bore circle, lock and shoot. No need to slow or look at the Mavreick tv

[Muppetlord]

I don´t.

But I also think that 16 Flares are enough ...

 

 

Yeah. I must say I'm not too worried about that.

 

Most of the time if you get a bandit on your tail to the point where he can fire IR at you then you're usually screwed anyway. Maybe that's just my bad dogfighting skills. :thumbup:

 

Though I wouldn't go around messing with SAMs with the M2000.