ANNOUNCEMENT - DCS: MiG-21bis

[Grim_Smiles]

Thanks for the announcement Cobra.

 

I agree with Hajduk and I think the politicall corectness and niceness should be thrown out the window when it comes to the money pledged.

 

I don't expect from Leatherneck simulations anything in return and I understand it's not their fault but I do feel kinda silly that the money I pledged didn't, in the end, go to the project and that possibly, someone just took it. So yeah, if it's Beczl or whoever, he/they should be held accountable.

 

It's a matter of principles, especially if the Letherneck sims are also loosing money by having to cover for someone elses theft and provide free copies of the game to the folks who pledged..

 

So the question is quite simple: who took the money from the IndieGoGo campaign?

 

Do we have to wait for an answer for months or will it be put under the rug because we don't want to stirr any pot or 'offend' someone?

 

I'm glad you used words like "possibly" and "if" since otherwise you're making accusations you have no evidence for. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever from anything Cobra told us that any "theft" has been involved and we have been given no information on that. Kuky's speculation is quite frankly far more likely to have happened than your speculation of theft - especially since Beczl himself experienced theft that derailed the project the first time, do not forget that. Again we don't know the whole story.

 

Based on the pieces we've been given, I'm making the guess that the rest of the team was wondering how certain funds were being spent. Beczl perhaps didn't feel he needed to explain or didn't do so in a way that satisfied the rest of the team. "Creative differences" and all, the team and Beczl decided to go their separate ways. The Indigogo funds were Beczl's "severance package" in exchange for not having access to any of the profits from the sale of the MiG (which I'm betting will be far more than what the Indigogo campaign raised).

 

If something like theft occurred, the team had options that could have been taken - the fact that nothing is being done by the team in that regards and they are moving on tells me that this was merely a "band breakup" agreed upon by mutual parties. Is this speculation on my part? Absolutely, but then again so are the fingers being pointed at Beczl. The backers will be getting their products, so I'd say we all need to let it go and trust Cobra and the rest to handle their business.

[Paradox]

Or we might be dropping you a hint. I don't think we'd be that obvious though, would we? Probably not. ;)

 

WAIT A MINUTE

 

Order the rumour mills to full operation!, dredge up the wikipedia articles!, trawl the forums!, look up family histories of all the team members!, SPECULATE LIKE YOU'VE NEVER SPECULATED BEFORE!!!

 

(It's either an F-4 or an F-5. Way too cool)

[159th_Falcon]

What the heck?

 

Just to be clear to everyone (and not blaming Leatherneck here).

 

Please keep in mind that the funds raised on indiegogo were raised years ago.

 

Laszlo has worked very hard and has worked trough several major setbacks to get the MIG-21 BiS to where it is today.

Either whit or without help from (part of) the now Leatherneck team, is not important.

 

Don't forget that Laszlo had people working for him during that time,

one decided to run whit the code he wrote AND his paycheck.

 

I have the numbers somewhere, from Laszlo himself, and just the above event alone took nearly all his indiegogo funds away.

 

So please give the guy some slack and refrain some saying "he took the money".

 

Cause i would be very surprised if he would even have a penny of it left.

 

As for this whole leatherneck internal issue thing, also there i know more, but won't share it in public.

(for obvious reasons)

 

I do like to say though that i am very disappointed in how things turned out for Laszlo.

He was a main driving force in the project, and the man who did all the necessary research.

He's also the one that had the contacts needed to make this module stand out from the crowd, and the same would be true for an MIG-23 simulation.

 

~S~

Having some very mixed feelings over this one. Just doesn't seem right.

 

 

***EDIT***

People have been contacting me if i can share the info whit them privately for one reason or another.

 

Answer, no i will not share ANY inside information i have over the MIG-21BiS project.

Edited March 1, 2014 by 159th_Falcon

[danvac]

WAIT A MINUTE

 

Order the rumour mills to full operation!, dredge up the wikipedia articles!, trawl the forums!, look up family histories of all the team members!, SPECULATE LIKE YOU'VE NEVER SPECULATED BEFORE!!!

 

(It's either an F-4 or an F-5. Way too cool)

 

DCS: US Marine.

 

I expect whole simulation including "food input and output.". :D

[blksolo]

I can see the F-4,but I think the hint he was dropping was a possible Marine aircraft which would rule out the F-5. Also it cant be the F-18 or Harrier because they are taken. So I'll go ahead and tell you what it is.....AH-1Z Cobra/Viper,you heard it here first!!!! Relax,wishful thinking on my part.

Edited February 27, 2014 by blksolo

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I'm glad you used words like "possibly" and "if" since otherwise you're making accusations you have no evidence for.

While we do not have evidence, we do have a public testimony and statement from the newly formed company representative. And Beczl is nowhere to be seen.

 

If something like theft occurred, the team had options that could have been taken ...

I gave my money given to a company called " beczl Studios", that had registered office at "Veszprem Jutasi u 67/A 2/3 8200 Hungary". I am not questioning the team internal contracts and agreements.

 

Is this speculation on my part? Absolutely, but then again so are the fingers being pointed at Beczl.

I haven't speculated at all. I only stated facts for which there is a written proof.

 

The backers will be getting their products, so I'd say we all need to let it go and trust Cobra and the rest to handle their business.

 

I have already pledged additional $100 to the Leatherneck Simulations and MiG-21BIS project and will support them in any way I can.

[Lord_Pyro]

I just noticed that indiegogo and kickstarter are not the same... Scrap my posting above -.-

[Paradox]

I can see the F-4,but I think the hint he was dropping was a possible Marine aircraft which would rule out the F-5. Also it cant be the F-18 or Harrier because they are taken. So I'll go ahead and tell you what it is.....AH-1Z Cobra,you heard it here first!!!! Relax,wishful thinking on my part.

 

The USMC do operate F-5Es as "adversary trainers"

[MACADEMIC]

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043547/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

 

"Flying Leathernecks" - 1951 movie with John Wayne, Robert Ryan, Don Taylor

 

Aircraft in the movie: F4F, F6F & later F4U

 

:music_whistling:

 

MAC

[LostOblivion]

Leatherneck Simulations...terrible name! Lol!

Once I saw your awesome logo, the name fit, and I was calmed down considerably! :)

 

Congrats on getting things worked out guys,but I gotta say Leatherneck is a terrible name. A company named after US Marines but your first few aircraft will be Russian?

What now? Leatherneck is unambiguously synonymous with US Marines? Lots of army squads call themselves "The Leathernecks", even in Norway. I'm sure there are Russians calling themselves leathernecks. It really is a generic name!

 

I feel sorry that it had to come to this, but sometimes difficult decisions have to be made in a business. Initially I was sorry for beczl. It could seem he was ousted from his position, but I'm glad if he was the one making the decision to leave.

 

Let us not forget that he is certainly a brilliant product developer and authentic modeller. He must love what he does, and I hope he is not afraid to continue making his brilliant add-ons and content for the community.

 

Without both beczl and Novak this product would never have seen the light of day. I don't think us backers should be angry about what happened regarding IngieGoGo. The funds were certainly put to good use, and the product might not have come this far without it. Do not be angry about having supported what you believed in, because it got the project to where it is today. :)

 

I wish all the best to new the team! (Or rather, same team, but with a new name!)

 

Lost

[VBS_Nero]

Thank you for the informed post, Buon lavoro :thumbup:

[159th_Falcon]

 

Without both beczl and Novak this product would never have seen the light of day. I don't think us backers should be angry about what happened regarding IngieGoGo. The funds were certainly put to good use, and the product might not have come this far without it. Do not be angry about having supported what you believed in, because it got the project to where it is today. :)

 

I wish all the best to new the team! (Or rather, same team, but with a new name!)

 

 

Well said, +

[Pyroflash]

I wish you guys the best of luck in the future.

[BRooDJeRo]

You should read terms of use before pledging. No one promised you anything. You just lost money on wrong investment like many people investing in stock or anything and there is not any legal way to fix that.

http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms

 

It says it's not refundable at Indiegogo. Futher disputes are between contributor and campaign owners.

[Flagrum]

I can see the F-4,but I think the hint he was dropping was a possible Marine aircraft which would rule out the F-5. Also it cant be the F-18 or Harrier because they are taken. So I'll go ahead and tell you what it is.....AH-1Z Cobra/Viper,you heard it here first!!!! Relax,wishful thinking on my part.

+1 :o)

 

but according to the usual trends in DCS, it could also be a F-14! :D

[Kegetys]

You should read terms of use before pledging. No one promised you anything....

http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms

 

Those terms say exactly the opposite:

 

Campaign Owner

 

As a Campaign Owner, you are permitted to offer Perks to Contributors. You shall meet all commitments you make in your Campaign including, but not limited to, delivering all Perks you offered with your Campaign. You will respond promptly and truthfully to all questions posed to you by Indiegogo. If you are unable to fulfill any of your commitments (including delivering any Perks), you will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include refunding their Contributions.

 

This is directed to Beczl personally - He is obliged by those terms to return our money because he is (apparentely) not able to deliver anything he promised. Leatherneck is not involved in that in any way it seems, and them honoring the preorders done to Beczl is absolutely great. But I would still much rather get my money back from the scam that Beczl ran with that Indiegogo campaign and give them to who actually delivers the product.

[Dudikoff]

Glad that the project is back on track, but I was actually looking forward to its follow-ups - the MiG-23 and Su-22 - more. With Beczl out of the picture, I don't expect those to happen anymore, sadly.

 

Your intention to respect the original contributions is really appreciated, but since I was not that crazy about the 21 itself in the first place, I don't think I'll buy another copy. Howeverm I'd be willing to go for some of the items (e.g. like the printed manual) so it might be worth considering to have an interest Poll or something before you place the production order that there might be some extra interest now on the forums so you can order some extra numbers.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

You should read terms of use before pledging. No one promised you anything. You just lost money on wrong investment like many people investing in stock or anything and there is not any legal way to fix that.

http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms

 

So, Danvac, you haven't read the "Indiegogo terms of use" before you made your post? :smilewink:

[LostOblivion]

[...] satisfactory resolution [...]

 

Apparently, Studio Beczl has given Leatherneck Simulations, a brand new company, the permission to continue developing the product and release it. I would say that this, getting what you backed to start with, is a satisfactory resolution.

 

What would you rather have, beczl sitting on the product not releasing, giving you refunds, or him letting someone else actually release the product. You're still getting what you backed.

 

Lost

[BRooDJeRo]

It might help allot when Mr. Laszlo and partner Novak would at least give it a personal green light and blessing to this project reboot without going into details.

[159th_Falcon]

It might help allot when Mr. Laszlo and partner Novak would at least give it a personal green light and blessing to this project reboot without going into details.

 

They have already done so by doing the bureaucratic paperwork.......

No announcement needed, only gives room to more speculation and misconception.

[mig29movt]

Just to be clear to everyone (and not blaming Leatherneck here).

 

Please keep in mind that the funds raised on indiegogo were raised years ago.

 

Laszlo has worked very hard and has worked trough several major setbacks to get the MIG-21 BiS to where it is today.

Either whit or without help from (part of) the now Leatherneck team, is not important.

 

Don't forget that Laszlo had people working for him during that time,

one decided to run whit the code he wrote AND his paycheck.

 

I have the numbers somewhere, from Laszlo himself, and just the above event alone took nearly all his indiegogo funds away.

 

So please give the guy some slack and refrain some saying "he took the money".

 

Cause i would be very surprised if he would even have a penny of it left.

 

As for this whole leatherneck internal issue thing, also there i know more, but won't share it in public.

(for obvious reasons)

 

I do like to say though that i am very disappointed in how things turned out for Laszlo.

He was a main driving force in the project, and the man who did all the necessary research.

He's also the one that had the contacts needed to make this module stand out from the crowd, and the same would be true for an MIG-23 simulation.

 

~S~

Having some very mixed feelings over this one. Just doesn't seem right.

 

 

Well said!

 

I won't reclaim my money (50 bucks, to be honest) because, as said beczl spent years doing what he did and I'mok with that.

I wouldn't even insist getting the stuff told on indiegogo nor a copy of the game. I will buy it anyway.

But I don't think that they care about 50$ less...

maybe some people join idk

Edited February 27, 2014 by mig29movt
Added the Quote, to get the context

[eFirehawk]

Well said!

 

I won't reclaim my money (50 bucks, to be honest) because, as said beczl spent years doing what he did and I'mok with that.

I wouldn't even insist getting the stuff told on indiegogo nor a copy of the game. I will buy it anyway.

But I don't think that they care about 50$ less...

maybe some people join idk

 

There's no need to reclaim anything. First, LS stated that they will give access to the plane for the original backers, and also from what I've read here is that the money from the campaign was used in the development of the module, nobody took money and ran away. And you will still get the plane :)

[Dr_Arrow]

Glad that the project is back on track, but I was actually looking forward to its follow-ups - the MiG-23 and Su-22 - more. With Beczl out of the picture, I don't expect those to happen anymore, sadly.

 

 

I also hoped that the studio will continue developing eastern hardware as all other independent parties are looking more at western aircraft. It is also quite sad news for me that Mig-23 was dropped.

[Cobra847]

Glad that the project is back on track, but I was actually looking forward to its follow-ups - the MiG-23 and Su-22 - more. With Beczl out of the picture, I don't expect those to happen anymore, sadly.

 

Your intention to respect the original contributions is really appreciated, but since I was not that crazy about the 21 itself in the first place, I don't think I'll buy another copy. Howeverm I'd be willing to go for some of the items (e.g. like the printed manual) so it might be worth considering to have an interest Poll or something before you place the production order that there might be some extra interest now on the forums so you can order some extra numbers.

 

As noted in the initial post, the MiG-23 in particular remains a very attractive project for us as it shares roughly 60% of code commonality with the MiG-23.

However this is not a definitive answer and things may change.