Release??

[outlawal2]

No, it doesn't stand a decent chance, or at least it shouldn't. This sort of meeting has happened in RL, and the MiG-21's didn't stand a chance. And that was with the AIM-7Fs flaking out.

 

The MiGs got out-radared, out-missiled and out-turned by the F-15A's. In fact, the MiG-21 has the dubious honor of being the one and only air to air gun kill of the F-15ABCD.

 

F-18Cs on a bombing mission self-escorted and shot down 2 MiG-21s with AIM-7MH/P and AIM-9. They didn't have to drop their bombs, and continued to carry on their mission. Again, not a chance.

 

Oh Holy Crap.. Didn't even drop their bombs first? Talk about rubbing salt in the wound! How would you like to be the opposition seeing THAT?

 

SERIOUS MORALE KILLER :cry:

[mjmorrow]

No, it doesn't stand a decent chance, or at least it shouldn't. This sort of meeting has happened in RL, and the MiG-21's didn't stand a chance. And that was with the AIM-7Fs flaking out.

 

The MiGs got out-radared, out-missiled and out-turned by the F-15A's. In fact, the MiG-21 has the dubious honor of being the one and only air to air gun kill of the F-15ABCD.

 

F-18Cs on a bombing mission self-escorted and shot down 2 MiG-21s with AIM-7MH/P and AIM-9. They didn't have to drop their bombs, and continued to carry on their mission. Again, not a chance.

 

This is why I will be going after C-130s and CIA Cessnas, whenever possible. :music_whistling: Let the Su-27 pilots figure out how to shoot one of the fast movers down. :joystick:

[Arrowhead]

Come on guys, you can do it. Any day now... :music_whistling:

[Kaktus29]

doesn't stand a chance? as some have stated, it depends on situation, numbers, other factors..

 

First what is the ratio of enemy vs. friend? if we have 4 F-15 jumping on 3 Mig-21 and F-15 have AWACS support, and F-14 circling in the back, and enemy Mig-21 have their military radars out, no awacs, bombed airfield.. well yeah obviously f15 wins hands down..

 

but hopefully nobody is going to do such a stupid setup for the mp..

 

i was thinking more of a 2F15 getting jumped by 8 Mig21 .. no awacs, or if there is awacs there is also GCI for the migs..

 

in that case yeah much more interesting.. also mig-21 should be able to start up from many airfield like strips which are not totally operational, hell vietcong send their migs pretty much from any flat part of the jungle ..

 

this would make ambushes much more likely.. and still f15 would obviously have the advantage (IF notified by AWACS-depends on mig flying profile as they go for the intercept) but a trained 8 pilot mig ship versus 2 1975 f15.. yeah i think its about 50-50..

 

in this kind of mp setups its about who wins totally, that means one side or the other must wipe the others out completely to call it a victory..

 

if that doesn't work keep on adding migs until we hit the sweet spot of 50:50.. pretty simple really..

 

unless some would like for f15 not to have any chance or for mig not to have any chance of winning in that case why keep playing dcs anyway)) we all want balance so we can show our skills.. if the setup is impossible to win its just well useless..

 

 

but considering that mig-21 from the 70's was about what ? 3 million USD (that is 70's dollars when they were worth something), and F15 was about 30 million .. so, for 2 F-15 to have a financially EQUAL fight it would mean 20 Mig-21..

 

well well... i would love to see this battle on the mp))) let the hunger games begin.. considering missiles of that time would be spoofed anyway this would be mostly a gun-gun match.. sweet))

 

 

since F15 out-turns, out-speeds, the migs it means migs would have to stay in disciplined fashion together and in a circle pattern, so as f15 comes for the gun kill they can coordinate the f15 path into cross fire.. so as i said, this requires big time training for the mig pilots.. training hard like a madmen.. )) for the f15, much less strategy or tactics, .. only hope is not enough trained mig pilots..

Edited June 26, 2014 by Kaktus29
didn't calculate properly the amount of migs for 2f15 price

[RagnarDa]

No, it doesn't stand a decent chance, or at least it shouldn't. This sort of meeting has happened in RL, and the MiG-21's didn't stand a chance. And that was with the AIM-7Fs flaking out.

 

The MiGs got out-radared, out-missiled and out-turned by the F-15A's. In fact, the MiG-21 has the dubious honor of being the one and only air to air gun kill of the F-15ABCD.

 

F-18Cs on a bombing mission self-escorted and shot down 2 MiG-21s with AIM-7MH/P and AIM-9. They didn't have to drop their bombs, and continued to carry on their mission. Again, not a chance.

What about speed at altitude? Any chance of running past (over?) the 15's?

[lmp]

I think the best way to create a scenario that's winnable for the MiGs is to look at what made the MiG-21 so successful in the Vietnam War. A lot of good ideas have already been given here. I think, while the MiGs should have some numerical advantage, it would be bad to overdo it. If you just pit a squadron of MiGs against a pair of Eagles, that might be more or less "fair", but it means most of the MiG players will just get killed, even if one or two get a shot at the enemy. Not a lot of fun. Not to mention you need a lot of players to make it happen.

 

However if you give the Eagle guys plenty of things (other than just killing the MiGs) to worry about, and at the same time a bunch of handicaps for the Fishbeds, a 2-3:1 advantage for the latter might be enough to make it interesting.

 

So to give an example:

 

BLUFOR is a pair of F-15s escorting an AI flight of slow, bombers unarmed for air to air. Their goal is to destroy a strategic ground target. They get no other support and the escorts are armed with Aim-7M and Aim-9P.

 

REDFOR is two or three pairs of MiGs armed with whatever they want, with EWR and maybe some SAM support. Their job is to stop the raid.

 

Here the F-15s have to be smart about their resources. They can wipe out the MiGs in BVR and have a big edge in a dogfight, but if they stray too much from the bombers, those might be shot down by other MiGs. The Eagles can lose without getting shot down.

 

The MiGs OTOH need to coordinate well and work with their EWR to either lure the Eagles away from the bombers or overwhelm them. They get to chose when and how to engage, but if they don't have a clear tactical advantage when they do, they stand no chance.

 

You could also add other things that hindered the US airman and helped Vietnamese pilots, like certain ROEs etc.

 

I'm not an experienced mission designer, nor do I fly much multiplayer, but I feel something like this might work.

[GGTharos]

Nope.

 

The MiG-21bis is basically a 'low capability target' compared to those aircraft.

 

If you must use a MiG-21bis or any of that era warplane to deal with something modern, because you have no other choice, then you'd want to use ambush CAPs as much as possible, and get them into the fight unobserved. Once you're past the merge, things change. But in a 'fair fight', you really don't want to be flying one of those against a modern fighter.

 

If you're looking for say, something like a suicidal AWACS blitz, then with higher numbers and careful stacking it might be possible to accomplish. We're talking M2 blitz past the defenders here with something like a 4:1 numerical advantage. You can't really blitz the defenders themselves easily though.

 

What about speed at altitude? Any chance of running past (over?) the 15's?

Edited June 26, 2014 by GGTharos

[Exorcet]

doesn't stand a chance? as some have stated, it depends on situation, numbers, other factors..

When you consider real F-15's against real MiG-21's and all the things beyond the raw capabilities of the aircraft, it makes a bit more sense. But not all of that is modeled in sim.

 

 

but hopefully nobody is going to do such a stupid setup for the mp..

Everyone once in a while being on the horribly outclassed side is fun. Someone should make a mission like that, but they don't all have to be that way. There's more options than just dieing, like playing smart.

 

since F15 out-turns, out-speeds, the migs it means migs would have to stay in disciplined fashion together and in a circle pattern, so as f15 comes for the gun kill they can coordinate the f15 path into cross fire.. so as i said, this requires big time training for the mig pilots.. training hard like a madmen.. )) for the f15, much less strategy or tactics, .. only hope is not enough trained mig pilots..

If they did that, the F-15's would just circle and wait out all the MiG's fuel tanks. Maybe not, but it might be funny to see how fast people burn the MiG's fuel when it first comes out. I know I'm used to 13000 lbs internal + two tanks and even with that I've managed to get home on fumes sometimes.

[GGTharos]

doesn't stand a chance?

 

No.

 

as some have stated, it depends on situation, numbers, other factors..

 

This is what we call 'making up happy circumstances and believing in lady luck'

 

i was thinking more of a 2F15 getting jumped by 8 Mig21 .. no awacs, or if there is awacs there is also GCI for the migs..

 

F-15A's trained for up to 8v2 scenarios. No AIM-120's. The aircraft they trained against was a combination of MiG-29, Mig-27 and Su-27. How do you think MiG-21's stack up against that?

But yes, now you at least have an interesting scenario ... which isn't happening on MP servers.

 

also mig-21 should be able to start up from many airfield like strips which are not totally operational, hell vietcong send their migs pretty much from any flat part of the jungle ..

 

So can anything with wheels. It's simply not done today because it wears the aircraft down. Any aircraft.

 

this would make ambushes much more likely.. and still f15 would obviously have the advantage (IF notified by AWACS-depends on mig flying profile as they go for the intercept) but a trained 8 pilot mig ship versus 2 1975 f15.. yeah i think its about 50-50..

 

What are the MiGs going to do? The F-15's don't even need to kill them all, they'll just run them out of gas.

 

unless some would like for f15 not to have any chance or for mig not to have any chance of winning in that case why keep playing dcs anyway)) we all want balance so we can show our skills.. if the setup is impossible to win its just well useless..

 

What skills, adding more MiG-21's until you have a chance? :) The F-15 isn't the only possible opponent out there, people simply asked about it.

 

but considering that mig-21 from the 70's was about what ? 3 million USD (that is 70's dollars when they were worth something), and F15 was about 30 million .. so, for 2 F-15 to have a financially EQUAL fight it would mean 20 Mig-21..

 

No, you don't have a financially equal fight. 2 F-15's burn far less fuel, consume fewer parts, and requires far less maintenance personnel than your 20 MiG-21's.

 

well well... i would love to see this battle on the mp))) let the hunger games begin.. considering missiles of that time would be spoofed anyway this would be mostly a gun-gun match.. sweet))

 

Gun match for who? The MiG-21 had nothing to spoof missiles with. In fact, F-15's killed all but one MiG-21 with missiles.

 

since F15 out-turns, out-speeds, the migs it means migs would have to stay in disciplined fashion together and in a circle pattern, so as f15 comes for the gun kill they can coordinate the f15 path into cross fire.. so as i said, this requires big time training for the mig pilots.. training hard like a madmen.. )) for the f15, much less strategy or tactics, .. only hope is not enough trained mig pilots..

 

Yeah right. Because F-15 pilots don't train. :) But the better part is that missiles work :)

[Paradox]

The Soviet Union recognised that the MiG-21's time as a frontline fighter was long over when they began the Bis upgrades (and before then).

 

Mission designers might think about the idea that Warsaw Pact doctrine was not to operate MiG-21MF and Bis as air superiority fighters, they were assigned to support units flying lightning strike missions against tactical targets following a comprehensive recon-in-force mission from aircraft like Su-24s.

 

The idea behind Soviet armour deployment of the 1970's/ 1980's was to use fast aircraft in large numbers to eliminate soft targets and potential ambushes before rolling very large numbers of tanks and IFVs into the theatre to overwhelm enemy forces on the ground.

 

This was the initial logic behind the development and employment of the MiG-21Bis in Soviet Union service, as well as being a natural choice for a relatively capable, cheap upgrade of an already popular aicraft to sell to Eastern European satellite states and third world allies.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

So much defeatism, I'll be tallying Flankers and Eagles to my Fishbed. Technological monstrosities defeated by a man strapped to a Tumansky.

 

No BVR

No R-73s

Single engine only

Final destination.

[Paradox]

So much defeatism, I'll be tallying Flankers and Eagles to my Fishbed. Technological monstrosities defeated by a man strapped to a Tumansky.

 

No BVR

No R-73s

Single engine only

Final destination.

 

That's the spirit

[outlawal2]

Considering the fact that few in the community train like the US armed forces, it is fair to assume that most folks are less than experts so a very skilled pilot may have some success.. It will be interesting to see how FishbedL makes out once this is released in the Wild...

[BattleRabbit]

So much defeatism, I'll be tallying Flankers and Eagles to my Fishbed. Technological monstrosities defeated by a man strapped to a Tumansky.

 

No BVR

No R-73s

Single engine only

Final destination.

 

TOO VICTORY COMRADE!!!

[Stratos]

The Soviet Union recognised that the MiG-21's time as a frontline fighter was long over when they began the Bis upgrades (and before then).

 

Mission designers might think about the idea that Warsaw Pact doctrine was not to operate MiG-21MF and Bis as air superiority fighters, they were assigned to support units flying lightning strike missions against tactical targets following a comprehensive recon-in-force mission from aircraft like Su-24s.

 

The idea behind Soviet armour deployment of the 1970's/ 1980's was to use fast aircraft in large numbers to eliminate soft targets and potential ambushes before rolling very large numbers of tanks and IFVs into the theatre to overwhelm enemy forces on the ground.

 

This was the initial logic behind the development and employment of the MiG-21Bis in Soviet Union service, as well as being a natural choice for a relatively capable, cheap upgrade of an already popular aicraft to sell to Eastern European satellite states and third world allies.

 

Sources for that very audacious claim please? And I'm not saying that is not true, but want to read full text. Thanks.

[Stratos]

What we would need will be a F-5E so we can have a fair fight between second rate air forces. Apart that will add a really fun plane I think.

[Grim_Smiles]

Oh Holy Crap.. Didn't even drop their bombs first? Talk about rubbing salt in the wound! How would you like to be the opposition seeing THAT?

 

SERIOUS MORALE KILLER :cry:

 

[Cobra847]

I, personally, will be flying 2m off the ground with 2x UPK-23 gunpods. Effectiveness be damned.

[Paradox]

Sources for that very audacious claim please? And I'm not saying that is not true, but want to read full text. Thanks.

 

My source almost entirely is the air support section of Field Manual 100-2-1, an unclassified assessment of the strategies that were understood to be employed by the Soviet Army from 1984.

 

Along with patchy peices of information of dubious quality that indicate the aircraft flown by the Soviet Air Defence Force and Soviet Airforce during the 1970's which include the MiG-21Bis LAZUR and MiG-21Bis SAU variants.

 

The part about taking the opportunity to export the MiG-21Bis to a wide variety of nations is educated assumption given the number of airforces today that operate the MiG-21Bis.

 

I didn't intend my post to be audacious necessarily, only helpful to mission designers.

[mig29movt]

What we would need will be a F-5E so we can have a fair fight between second rate air forces. Apart that will add a really fun plane I think.

 

I was to shy to ask, but that was my guess too....

 

The swiss air force F-5Es are using only guns and AIM-9Ps, I thought that would be a suitable opponent, and maybe a very early F-4 would be.

 

My guess: the F-104 wouldn't stand a chance against the bis

 

Btw: did the EE Lightning saw any combat action?

[mjmorrow]

So what would be highly competitive DCS flyable fighter matchups for the Mig-21bis? I am perfectly happy to hunt for C-130s and beat up white Toyota insurgent pickup trucks on a mp map, while the Su-27 pilots duke it out with the F-15s, still, if there are good air to air matchups, I would be game for that, too.

[Stratos]

I was to shy to ask, but that was my guess too....

 

The swiss air force F-5Es are using only guns and AIM-9Ps, I thought that would be a suitable opponent, and maybe a very early F-4 would be.

 

My guess: the F-104 wouldn't stand a chance against the bis

 

Btw: did the EE Lightning saw any combat action?

 

I guess the Tiger-E would be a great fighter to have in DCS stable. Not too advanced avionics, agile small fighter and as said before a excellent match against the bis.

 

About the Lightning:

 

 

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=75&Itemid=47

[Paradox]

But when?

[SDsc0rch]

thx @TooTall for that youtube vid

 

 

interesting observation - hornets radar can pick up a nose-on mig-21 at 30miles

 

also, hornets carrying Mk-84s can go supersonic

 

 

just a couple data points for the flight sim devs.......... *wink*wink*

[mjmorrow]

I was to shy to ask, but that was my guess too....

 

The swiss air force F-5Es are using only guns and AIM-9Ps, I thought that would be a suitable opponent, and maybe a very early F-4 would be.

 

 

Btw: did the EE Lightning saw any combat action?

 

 

Switzerland? I admire their high standard of living and quality of life too much to even simulate shooting at a Swiss plane. If I see a Swiss fighter in mp, I will go up along side and try to simulate defecting to Switzerland. :megalol: