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F-15C Missile Problems/Questions


Milkbone

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Please forgive my newbish questions, I eagerly await proper tutorials for the F-15C module I just purchased.

 

I have some quick Questions about how missiles work and missile selection goes.

 

After much fiddleing with my controls I was able to select my missiles, lock on, and fire at my target. In this regard I have a question about how Lock ons work after I've selected my target. When toggleing through weapon select (D by default) I get 2 different circle types. A large one with a dotted line and a small solid circle that hums. The humming solid circle was able to lock on and fire relatively easy (at close range), however after just 2 missile shots I was unable to get another lock on despite the fact I still had multiple missiles on my craft (as verified by an outside camera view). Am I supposed to select a different set of missiles? How do I do so? (I was on the Helo Hunter mission).

 

What is the second "Dotted Line Circle" used for?

 

BONUS QUESTION: How Do I know if a missile is incoming and what counter measures I should use against it?

 

Thank you for your time, I am really enjoying this simulator.

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The small circle is the AIM-9 Sidewinder, a heat-seeking missile. The large circle is the AIM-120 AMRAAM, a medium- to long-range radar-guided missile, which requires some manipulation of the Eagle's radar to lock and fire.

 

If you look on Youtube for 'F-15C tutorial', you'll find a lot of videos by DCS players giving you more information on the Eagle and how to use it in combat. You might also be able to find someone willing to give you some lessons in multiplayer.

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You can only use one weapon at a time. Selecting a different weapon changes your HUD along with selecting different NAV or combat modes.

 

The humming circle is the AIM-9 missile. You can use it without radar, the seeker tone changes from a low growl to a high pitched whine when the seeker detects a target. The seeker can also be directed by radar if you lock on to the target with your radar.

 

The AIM-120 is the missile with the large circle. It is radar guided and requires a radar lock before use against long range targets. The 120 has its own radar, so you can fire it without a lock, but it's not as reliable as the AIM-9 is when used in this way. The primary way to use the AIM-120 is in BVR mode (the 2 key) with radar (I key toggle) set to TWS (O key toggle). This allows you to lock on to enemies without sending a lock on warning to them.

 

There are various ways to detect a missile launch against you. Radar guided missiles are easiest to detect since they will set off your RWR (the round screen on the right of the front cockpit panel). SARH missile launches show up through the radar of the launching aircraft/vehicle. ARH missiles show up as the letter "M".

 

IR missiles (like the AIM-9 and more dangerous R-73 and R-27ET) are passive and don't trigger RWR warnings. You need to either spot them visually by looking outside the cockpit or use some kind of launch warning detector (the F-15 has none). You will probably die to IR missiles a lot until you learn to anticipate their use and launch.

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You guys helped me greatly. I was able to fire off my missiles and hit my targets, though Im not so sure just what mechanics were in play to let me do that =D. I just have a few additional questions.

 

What is the TWS toggle? What does it do and how do I know its activated.

 

When a missile is incoming, how do I know which countermeasure to use?

 

You mentioned the primary way to the AIM-120 was in BVR mode. Other then Dumbfire what other ways could I use the missile?

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These past few days I have been POURING over tutorials and studying the keyboard commands intently. I can now say I am quite proficient at all this missile whatnot!

 

I just have one last question that might be more of a preference/experience question:

 

In TWS mode when I've locked onto a target waaaaay off, what do you suppose is the best range to fire my AIM 120's?

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at the risk of sounding like i'm whining, are the missiles worse since 1.2.8? cuz i think i have noticed a marked drop in performance (subjective of course, with no tests or evidence to back that up, i also only have about a year online experience - disclaimer!).

i think the 120s are missing more often, or are at least easier to evade, the aim7 as useless as ever (i give up carrying it i tell you!). i had merged with an su27 today (i know, shouldn't be that close but he was unlucky, i got visual first), turned off radar to stab him in the back with a sidewinder. did a radical turn (too hard as it turned out) and as my nose swung to his 6, the seeker picked up his hot tailpipes, he didn't react, he didn't know i was there (perfect!). now as i hit launch, my nose drops out of the sky on account of the stupid turn i did, and the missile launches. it blows up somewhere ahead of me where the target isn't, he see's the black puff and goes all evasive. i'm wondering if i ****ed that up, or the missile did?

 

[edit:] also, i'm finding russian missiles easier to evade - now i would like to put that down to 'me getting better with time' but it could just be 1.2.8 and i still suck


Edited by Altimaden

Opinions expressed here are subjective and redundant

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With the current missile performance ?

 

BELOW 10 miles

 

5 is even better

 

I respectfully disagree. That is terrible advice. Your first volley of missiles will never kill a competent pilot. It is to force him defensive and degrade his firing position and situational awareness. Waiting till 5nm will get you killed online. This is the frustration I see often with new pilots complaining about missiles. Long range shots will be low pk against anything but drones. Their purpose is not one shot one kill.

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Hello , if you fly at 30000 ft and the bandit at 20000ft , you should have permission at 20-25 Nm . But if you shoot at this time you have 50% to miss . Its only to keep the bandit on defensive. With the AIM120 you can shoot at 15 nm to hope have a good kill :smilewink:.

 

If you shoot like IA at max range ,it's "too" easy to evade , a litle snake with some chaff ... :pilotfly:

Prefer the 120 C , the B model is not very efective.

 

For sparrow you can shoot at 10Nm in head to head , or 5 Nm if you are in Tail sector .

 

PS: i'm not BVR tactics professionnal ,but i've few hours of flight and every check by tacwiew .

AIM 120 are more effective if you shoot them in no escape zone . :megalol:

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So, understanding that missles are Borked ATM, what were the original 120's preferred range in TWS mode?

 

The F-15C uses something called a Dynamic Launch Zone (DLZ) to make these estimations easier. When inside parameters that the aircraft's computer deems acceptable for a reasonable probability (pK) shot, the lock/shoot lights (on your forward canopy bow) will come on and a small asterisk-like symbol (a tiny star for the AIM-120 series, and a Triangle for the AIM-7M) will come on below the TDC box in your HUD. The 120B's range and performance is slightly worse than that of the 120C-7 modeled in game.

 

Keep in mind that these are only range estimates. There are a whole bunch of other factors that will determine whether the missile actually hits the target or not. Depending on what is happening, you may want to launch earlier, or later than the max as determined by the DLZ.

 

The typical range for a DLZ auth assuming a converging target at ~20k' (20,000 feet altitude) is about 22 nautical miles (nm) right now, but the mental part of the engagement should start MUCH earlier than that.

 

Missile defense is a whole other game, as far as systems go, the RWR will be quite directive at telling you that a missile is coming, but I wouldn't start my missile defense with systems.

 

Instead, my first suggestion would be (if you are serious about learning the right way to do things) to find a virtual squadron of some sort that specializes in the F-15C. This is because missile defense is pretty much a discipline rooted in the basics of Basic Fighter (or Flight) Maneuvering (BFM), and plus it will make you a MUCH better pilot down the road (before you start making rookie mistakes that you will have to unlearn later anyways).

If you aim for the sky, you will never hit the ground.

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Just as an FYI, the absolute limit for the Aim-120C in game is 45nm for getting LA at about 30k head-on) The R-27ER is slightly shorter legged. At around 20nm you have a decent chance of a kill with the 120C. All things being the same, the F-15 will see the bandit a few seconds in advance, and get LA a few seconds ahead. If your facing a Flanker with ERs, he can shoot about 3-5 seconds after you get LA. Your real advantage is in the active seeker of the AMRAAM so make maximum usage of your near fire and forget abilities.

 

The order of things is like this at 30k co alt bandit:

1. Target appears on radar ~ 60miles

2. LA given ~ 40-30 Miles depending on aspect and your own speed.

3. Shoot a spoiler shot as soon as you get LA to put your enemy on the defensive

4. Continue to salvo shots each time the enemy comes out of the notch or just every so often so that he cant get in a return shot and effectively guide it.

5. If hes still not dead, fire your remaining missile at 10nm or so.

6. If still not dead, dogfight.

 

If facing multiple hostiles, your probably wont have enough missiles to kill both. Use TWS and fire 4 120s at each and then just book it out of the AO. At least that's the best thing I've come up with so far lol.

 

Also, about Wikipedia: The range of the 120C is greater than >57nm. If you follow the link that they dredged that statistic up from, you will see that it states it is an estimate assuming an even greater range of >65miles. You could also just do that math, as by their own admission its range is >105km or 65miles.


Edited by USARStarkey

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yep as intended driver. you loose 15 degrees of each side. the scan is quicker though, so you'll get faster target updates and it does make a difference

you can also switch your regular scan mode's beam width down to 30 degrees too, to get that faster scan.

Opinions expressed here are subjective and redundant

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If facing multiple hostiles, your probably wont have enough missiles to kill both. Use TWS and fire 4 120s at each and then just book it out of the AO. At least that's the best thing I've come up with so far lol.

 

Don't do this. The Eagle has the capability to consistently and effectively press a target. Going 2v1 against Flankers isn't optimal, but if they are flying right next to each other, you should be able to fire two missiles and spook them at the very least. You shouldn't be worrying about 2v1's at your skill level anyways. A person just starting out isn't even in the optimal mindset to be even engaging one target BVR. If you hop online, you will just get ripped apart no matter what. It isn't because they are necessarily good pilots, or know what they are doing, but that they have more experience than you right now. Knowledge is power, and if you start out with a good grasp of performance specifics, system interaction, and flying skill, then you will be able to eat people alive.

 

The real answer is simply, it depends. The interaction between elements in a simulated battlefield like this is pretty complex. What's even worse is that not knowing what you are seeing, you can't even get better at it. There isn't really an instructional manual for tactical air combat (I mean, yeah, there are BOOKS, but they teach specifics and not the interaction between different elements). What most people learn, they learn by example, or by experience. The difference is what kind of examples they take as gospel, and what they can debrief to learn from that experience. Find an experienced player (or two, or better yet, a squadron), and have them sit with you and teach you some stuff every now and again. You will be pleasantly surprised at how much there is to learn, even from tiny snippets of proper education.

 

yep as intended driver. you loose 15 degrees of each side. the scan is quicker though, so you'll get faster target updates and it does make a difference

you can also switch your regular scan mode's beam width down to 30 degrees too, to get that faster scan.

 

RWS/LRS is 120 degrees, TWS is a 60 degree scan. RWS/LRS also has the option of scanning in a narrow beam at 60 degrees. Each lateral box represents 30 degrees of azimuth in the scan.


Edited by Pyroflash

If you aim for the sky, you will never hit the ground.

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RWS/LRS is 120 degrees, TWS is a 60 degree scan. RWS/LRS also has the option of scanning in a narrow beam at 60 degrees. Each lateral box represents 30 degrees of azimuth in the scan.

 

oh! thank you i was not aware of this!

i was under the impression that i was casting a 60 degree wide cone.

come to think of it, would the radar produce a circular cone? or is it oblique?

Opinions expressed here are subjective and redundant

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How do you properly press a pair or even a single Flanker in an Eagle. I have no doubt the F-15 can do this, because I manage it sometimes. But I am hardly an expert. My main issues seems to be that sometimes I fire at a target and the opponent doesnt seem to care that he has 3 120's bearing down on him. When this happens, I usually go to gimble either vertically or horizontally(I really like vertically since I am still pointing right at him) and hope he goes into the notch at the last second or my missiles hit first. If not, I make a last ditch attempt at dodging his missiles. Not sure what else to do.

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How do you properly press a pair or even a single Flanker in an Eagle.

 

Depends on the opponent. If they fly beside each other with no spacing then you know they are unaware of your position/baiting you/simply incompetent. If they're competent they'll try to space out so you can only target one of them at the same time, this can be achieved in a lot of ways. In that case if you want to press depending on what how they spread you can risk being shot by the guy you're not looking at. If they split in azimuth you can pick a side and buy yourself some time before the second guy engages you, but if they see this they can change their plan according, again if they're good. If they split vertically you generally want to prepare fighting the higher one since he's the more dangerous to you but that doesn't mean ignoring the other one. If they decide to box, you will have time to fight the first guy before the second gets into firing range, with good SA and reactions you can fight 1v2 decently if they /only/ box, but the thing is you'll have to fire atleast one missile per recommit while they can possibly resort to firing only one per 2 of their recommits. This combined with lacking numbers simply leads to you running out of missiles earlier than they do.

 

My main issues seems to be that sometimes I fire at a target and the opponent doesnt seem to care that he has 3 120's bearing down on him.

 

Don't matter if you fired 600 slammers or 1, if they all came from the /same/ position it's literally the same effect. If the opponent is delaying his defensive shot you can keep pushing and fire a 2nd slammer closer which will have a better pk.

 

When this happens, I usually go to gimble either vertically or horizontally(I really like vertically since I am still pointing right at him) and hope he goes into the notch at the last second or my missiles hit first. If not, I make a last ditch attempt at dodging his missiles. Not sure what else to do.

 

What you like doing is effectively a quick and easy way of getting yourself killed. Most often you want to give those missiles an offset so they have to travel more before impact, then they're likely to be lower on energy in the endgame so your chances of outmaneuvering them are better. Having the thought of "I'll outmaneuver that missile anyway" is a good way of getting killed all the time also.

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oh! thank you i was not aware of this!

i was under the impression that i was casting a 60 degree wide cone.

come to think of it, would the radar produce a circular cone? or is it oblique?

 

It's easier to think of it as a box TBH.

If you aim for the sky, you will never hit the ground.

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  • 5 months later...

Looking for an answer regarding this and found this thread. Is it correct to say that the AIM-120B and C are both fire-and-forget at BVR and Visual Range? I had thought for BVR you had to guide it until pitbull; but somewhere I thought I read it would take the initial data to guide itself until pitbull if the link to the aircraft radar is broken . This wouldn't be the most effective I understand.

 

Can someone confirm? Thanks.

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Inside of 8-10nm the missile tracks using its own radar. Until this, you must guide with your radar. However, in TWS mode, the missile guides inertially based on last known kinematics of your target, and then tracks on its own ones in radar range for its internal sensor. It is the opposite of ineffective. TWS is the most effective way to BVR kill a bandit. This is because your target gets no warning that you fired. If your going head to head, it is usually unlikely they will turn before the missile starts track on its own, and when it does its gotten alot closer than usual without them moving to dodge. Depends on who your fighting however. Every experienced eagle driver I know uses TWS almost exclusively.

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