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SU-35 vs F-22


Ktulu2

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Emphasis mine. The gun is no longer used much. And missiles can now turn so well that you don't really need to. This isn't 1970's and AIM-9X isn't a 1970's sidewinder either. Or a 1990's sidewinder even.

 

F-4 was built by someone having the same thinking as your but he was proved wrong. Guns were necessary. In later engagements after F-15 and F-16 were introduced most engagements were WVR and kills were made with IR guided missiles and yes that requires maneuverability.

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Su-35 does Cobra

 

When this happens, F-22 is like

 

'ECM Failure'

'RWR Failure'

'Radar Failure'

'EJECT EJECT EJECT'

 

:(

 

I bet the Su-35 with the cobra manoeuvre would be hard for the F-22 to counter.

 

lol

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Su-35 does Cobra

 

When this happens, F-22 is like

 

'ECM Failure'

'RWR Failure'

'Radar Failure'

'EJECT EJECT EJECT'

 

:(

 

The FCS will automatically eject the pilot and surrender to the superior force upon seeing the maneuver. :)

 

Emphasis mine. The gun is no longer used much. And missiles can now turn so well that you don't really need to. This isn't 1970's and AIM-9X isn't a 1970's sidewinder either. Or a 1990's sidewinder even.

 

Agree, IIRC there's a heavily decreasing trend of gun usage in the past decades, there were a lot of gun kills in Desert Shield/Storm but I can't remember any during Allied Force.

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Only a couple of gun kills against helicopters. All fixed wing kills were by missiles IIRC.

 

Agree' date=' IIRC there's a heavily decreasing trend of gun usage in the past decades, there were a lot of gun kills in Desert Shield/Storm but I can't remember any during Allied Force.[/quote']

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Might've been, but unless that helo pilot was the best in the world, I don't think we could call his fight with an A-10 a dogfight ;)

 

Haha, true. It may have been the only "dogfight" the A-10 could have won, anyway. :P

 

Though back to the issue at hand, that gun kill occurred only after the A-10 attempted to use its AIM-9s first.

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One of several reasons why the Pugachev's Cobra isn't a viable maneuver is amply demonstrated in Flaming Cliffs itself:

 

 

Though the unfortunate thing here is that some kids whose only exposure to BFM is Top Gun and that one mission from Battlefield 3 have the nerve to claim that they know better.

 

I've also heard anecdotally that there are AOA limiters installed on most Flankers, in case there's a pilot who is dumb enough to think it's a good idea.

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One of several reasons why the Pugachev's Cobra isn't a viable maneuver is amply demonstrated in Flaming Cliffs itself:

 

 

Though the unfortunate thing here is that some kids whose only exposure to BFM is Top Gun and that one mission from Battlefield 3 have the nerve to claim that they know better.

 

I've also heard anecdotally that there are AOA limiters installed on most Flankers, in case there's a pilot who is dumb enough to think it's a good idea.

 

You are absolutely right but posting that video just made you enter same league of people whom you are bashing here..

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The F-4 was also developed in the time when mass launches of unguided rockets were used as an intercept weapon, and missilery was still in its infancy. Also in Vietnam the BVR engagements would have been outside the standing ROE.

 

I'm not saying that WVR combat is obsolete or that guns are superfluous. Im just saying that things have changed considerably since the 1960's when this was last a big point of discussion.

 

besides, as from what I have read about Red flag exercises. The Raptors do rather well against gen 4.5+++++ etc aircraft, which is what the Su-35 is. And the Raptor was designed and selected with the best ACM ability in mind.

 

and for the record, I'm all for "fix bayonets".

 

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/the-most-famous-bayonet-charge-of-modern-conflict-2012-10

 

there is reason why they still teach it.

 

Beat me to the draw regarding Vietnam-era BVR missile technology.

 

Yes, there IS a reason they still teach bayonet drill, but it's not because they really expect bayonet fighting to be a common enough occurrence to require it- it's because it instills aggression and fighting spirit into soldiers. Also note that the article doesn't actually mention the bayonets inflicting casualties- merely that they fixed them, and aggressively moved into close combat. Either way, how many hundreds or thousands of enemy do you think were disabled through rifle, heavy weapon, mortar, artillery, or aerial fires for each casualty inflicted through bayonets?

 

In short: yes, put enough Spitfires in the sky and they'll eventually shoot down an F-22, but that doesn't make it efficient.

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You are absolutely right but posting that video just made you enter same league of people whom you are bashing here..

 

How does his posting an animated explanation of the shortcomings of a maneuver put him in the same league as folks who have had no exposure to actual physics-constrained airc combat maneuvering?

 

I thought the video was a pretty good illustration: it showed that the average gun engagement is at significantly greater range than would be required to force an overtake before a gun shot could be taken, it showed that it removes almost all lateral motion of the target aircraft, and it shows that the target aircraft presents a large, plane-view target. About the only thing it really missed was how little energy the Sukhoi is left with on exit of the maneuver (assuming it survives that long!).

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Emphasis mine. The gun is no longer used much. And missiles can now turn so well that you don't really need to. This isn't 1970's and AIM-9X isn't a 1970's sidewinder either. Or a 1990's sidewinder even.
In the theater where there NATO had 10 times more airplanes then Yugoslavia. For every 1 Yugoslavian airplanes, there was 10 of NATO. Of course that the gun will not be used.

 

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2) Oh, REALLY? And where do you have it on such good authority that the F-35 does not use radar to compute gun solutions?
My authority comes from the fact, that just like some other members on this forum, I know everything about military aviation. Just ask question, and you shell receive the answer! :smartass:

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My authority comes from the fact, that just like some other members on this forum, I know everything about military aviation. Just ask question, and you shell receive the answer! :smartass:

 

Come on guys. More on topic, less on patting yourselves on the back....

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It isn't the only theater where missiles were used, and not guns.

 

In the theater where there NATO had 10 times more airplanes then Yugoslavia. For every 1 Yugoslavian airplanes, there was 10 of NATO. Of course that the gun will not be used.

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Hi, yesterday i saw that a su-35 was better than a F-22 . It was a youtube video, so i don't know if its true, and i also doubt that it is so, as the su-35 isn't stealt. but anyway :

1- is it true in BRV

2-is it also true in WVR

 

 

These arguments always confuse me... neither of these planes are probably truly designed for 1v1 combat (least not in the sense I think of when you say 1vs1), more likely they are designed with the consideration of support from other air assets, etc... in a modern day superpower war situation, what would air combat look like? Probably not a lot of fancy dog fights... maybe the discussion needs to be US missile vs Ru missile ;)

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... maybe the discussion needs to be US missile vs Ru missile ;)

 

You know you don't want yet another iteration of that. :)

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You know you don't want yet another iteration of that. :)

 

 

Maybe I do, then I can merge this thread with those ;)

 

But seriously... how many modern day superpower bouts would come down to pure dog fights? Surely the above mentioned aircraft were designed with BVR first in mind....

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It isn't the only theater where missiles were used, and not guns.
You are right. Same as in Iraq, the ratio was at least 5 to 1 in aircraft numbers alone. Not to mention technological and pilot training gap. There was no need to get CAC because if one missile miss, somebody else will shoot another one. Eventually, with numerical and technological superiority, tactical situation becomes very favorable and, a missile will eventually hit.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the missiles are totally bad. But, if every missile would hit, they would be called hit-siles, not miss-iles.

 

Also, here, we are talking aircraft of a similar generation and technology. One on one.

 

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But seriously... how many modern day superpower bouts would come down to pure dog fights? Surely the above mentioned aircraft were designed with BVR first in mind....

 

Agreed. But once you take that stance, then most of the content of this thread is silly.

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