Journey of a new pilot...

[GGTharos]

Yeah. I'd also say use the radar as you see fit. It's always useful to see where your buddies are, and sometimes you'll run into a bandit on your way back.

[TAW_Blaze]

I'd recommend having your radar on while RTB and scan close in MPRF, especially when you're on your own. You can shut it off when you think you're safe, but there are always some sneaky people that end up behind your base and whatnot. It might annoy some people, but on the usual server quake this is good practice and it'll save you a lot.

[Stuge]

GG and Blaze are right, maybe i didn't say it quite well...

 

I like to use it intermittently when returning.. and keep it off while i feel safe :)

[GGTharos]

You know how it is Stuge, devil's in the details - technique and execution ... you tell someone something but you don't communicate all the little bits, assuming they'll do what makes sense :D

 

Conclusion: Common sense isn't :D

[Stuge]

Indeed...

[FLANKERATOR]

Ace, a little plus for you buddy - try to practice above contrail supersonic RTBs. This will save you a lot of time, discourage any pursuer, keep you relatively safe and give you the upper-hand over any sneaky bandit on your way back (usually low and hiding). Don't climb up too steeply, use burners to hit mach 2.0 above 10km high. You'll need some fuel to burn on your way up but once there, your fuel consumption will be very efficient, even on burners.

You'll be on final approach before you know it :)

[Buckeye]

Thanks for the pointer, Flank!

[GGTharos]

... and quit loading 3 tanks. Do you even get anywhere near exhausting 1 or 2 before you meet bandits? Not really :)

[Buckeye]

Got a chance to fly with a lot of the fellas who pop in and out of this thread today, thanks to those who took a few minutes to give me some pointers. Throughout the day I ended up getting some pretty good confidence built up before GG hit me up for some guns only BFM practice with a few of his 44th buddies. That exercise pretty much destroyed any confidence I has going lol. I got myself all flustered and performed worse than I can remember in a while (since the first week or two I had DCS)...but it was a good reality check and it will keep my motivated to keep working hard. The feeling I had after those 2 v 2 dogfights was a lot like the feeling I had sophomore year when I screwed up and lost a game for the team. Onward and upward though, I'm off to watch the TacViews now!

[BadK]

Good flying with/against you on Sunday, Ace. Like I said, this is a really great thread!

[Buckeye]

Good flying with/against you on Sunday, Ace. Like I said, this is a really great thread!

 

You too, dude...glad you're enjoying the thread!

[Buckeye]

I seem to be losing a lot of BVR battles that in in my mind I should have won. What I mean is this: I get them bugged in TWS at about 40k or more. I obtain and take a speed and altitude advantage into the fight. As soon as I get LA, I wait a second or two and launch my first AIM-120C. I guide it to the target until the pitbull clock expires, then I make read. At that point my read is based on what feedback RWR is giving me, and in this example most of the time I am either getting nothing at all, or just a simple "the target sees you" beep -- no hard lock, no launch warning. I get to just above or at RTR and fire again, in my mind, this launch is the icing on the cake and the kill is mine. There have been plenty of times in these scenarios where I will launch a third inside 10k "just to be sure", at which point I pull some G's and turn away (put the missile on my 3/9 line and lose altitude). Somehow, none of my missiles hit him (even the ones launches inside 10k) and his one launch hits me. Now I know there are plenty of moving parts and thus multiple things that could be happening, but my TacView has been set up wrong so I can't watch it to see what's happening and I'm wondering am I doing something completely wrong here?

[Stuge]

I really feel like the 3/9 line in missile evasion is kinda overrated, much like corner speed i mentioned earlier is in a dogfight.

 

I find that running away from a missile with max speed, max G, and minimum altitude, best guarantees bleeding a missile out of energy. By doing this, surviving a 10nm head-on shot is very doable, as long as you are prepared for it. And if you come there with more total energy than the bad guy, maybe you get away but he doesn't ;)

 

The trick is to convert all energy you have into evasive action. Max G throughout the process. All extra altitude converted into airspeed before you anticipate getting (potentially) hit. And contrary to what you hear around sometimes, running away is better than flying a straight 3/9 line. Maybe this image will help: http://scilib.narod.ru/Avia/Bonanni/images/f01-09.jpg

 

See how RMax is shortest when the shot is taken at a fighter's 6 o clock, compared to 3 o clock or 9 o clock...

[Buckeye]

Ok, I think I may have misinterpreted the need to fire first to make the enemy defensive...I need to wait a bit longer before my first launch.

 

In a meeting at work now so can't respond to in depth, but I will probably have some follow ups later. Thanks for the responses.

[TAW_Blaze]

Firing first is essential but firing too early is worthless and a good opponent knows this. Don't waste missiles for no reason.

[Frostie]

Winning BVR is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman, you've gotta be hot, you need to have the biggest stick and get your weapon ready, you gotta shoot first and shoot last. And when she's going down finish her off by spraying her with your cannon.

Then get out the celebratory cigar and think back on your conquest. :smoke:

[Bushmanni]

Missile fired from R_aero forces the enemy to just make a shallow turn instead of going defensive. You need to be the first guy to fire a missile from a range that forces the receiver to go defensive. 10nm shot is something that can be relatively easily trashed with aggressive maneuvering and/or notching but otherwise it's going to be deadly. Basically it's the shot that forces the enemy to go defensive. You can hope for a lucky break and leave the fight after this but if you really want the guy go down then the real fight starts from here.

 

Surprise is important as it multiplies your chances of getting a kill but don't sacrifice SA for it as SA keeps you from getting into unfavorable situations and getting shot down. What I'm saying is to not try to sneak upon enemy using RWR and having radar off as your primary method like many n00bs like to try. It's better to learn to use radar and proper tactics than to try to be sneaky as the sneaky tactic only works on people who can't use either. Only when you have tally or by some other means know exactly where the enemy is it's sensible to approach radar off. In those situations it's usually the smart thing to do provided you have made sure there are no surprises in the neighborhood.

[Crescendo]

Winning BVR is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman, you've gotta be hot, you need to have the biggest stick and get your weapon ready, you gotta shoot first and shoot last. And when she's going down finish her off by spraying her with your cannon.

Then get out the celebratory cigar and think back on your conquest. :smoke:

 

Can we please try to limit the casual sexism? Not everyone who visits this forum and reads threads like these is 'one of the boys'.

[TAW_Blaze]

Well, 10 nm is maybe a very rough guide line but it really depends a lot on what altitudes i think.

 

I don't know the numbers exactly but when both @ 50.000 feet i'd rather not get that close

 

p.s: Using your RWR as a means of "sneaking up" on your enemy , i've never heard of that but it seems exactly the opposite of what one would be trying to achieve.

Getting an RWR signal basically means "hey, that radar sees you" :D

 

Having an RWR signal alone doesn't imply the guy sees you. Not at all. You need to know under what circumstances it is impossible for him to see you even if he's technically painting you.

[TAW_Blaze]

It's not a bad idea. You can easily sneak up on him until he's close enough to see you in a notch (you can judge this with your RWR, if he's painting you) but before that he'll never see you no matter what he does. If you know where he's scanning you can pick a position where you have a chance of getting through, it won't always work, and if I get painted inside that range of course I'll act as if I've been seen. Having to deal with a guy that only popped up 20nm away already makes it tougher for him.

 

I'm not trying to make it sound more complex, you're trying to make it sound like it can't be used because it's not reliable. It is reliable, if you know the limits of that reliability. If you act like you're stealth when the guy is blatantly seeing you that's not the fault of the idea.

[SFJackBauer]

The western RWR is superior to the russian ones here. On a Su-27, where your RWR can be easily overloaded with airborne and ground radar sources, not that easy to do. You have to be more aggressive on your radar use to clear airspaces and sort friendlies and hostiles alike, especially without datalink and without cooperating friendlies.

 

But even on a Su-27, you can still gamble on being unseen and getting kills. However I'd imagine a real Su-27 pilot, put in the same situation as our virtual pilots, with no AWACS/GCI support, and with poor coordination between friendly units, would be much more conservative about its positioning and detection than we ever see happening in some servers out there.

 

@Ace of Harts

 

I see some Eagle drivers sometimes making the mistake of being at high altitude, firing at a lower alt target, and then maintaining the same high altitude and course thus making itself easier to catch by an incoming AAM. Meanwhile his missile have to look down (harming its guidance) and in the denser air (depleting its speed). Sometimes you need to go down to the weeds and beat the guy at his own terms. DISCLAIMER - Of course this is all dependent on several other variables.

[Bushmanni]

Well, 10 nm is maybe a very rough guide line but it really depends a lot on what altitudes i think.

 

I don't know the numbers exactly but when both @ 50.000 feet i'd rather not get that close

 

Yes, 10nm holds for Mach ~1.0 @~20k bandits. If the bandit is higher and/or faster than that then you need to start evasion sooner. Also if you are at high altitude and at low IAS your turn capability will be poor and you will need to start turning earlier. For example 1.0M at 40k makes you pretty much a sitting duck so it's better to trade altitude for speed before you need to start evasive maneuvering.

[Stuge]

It all comes down to: do you want to see the bandit go evasive/defensive, or not? If yes, fire early. If not, wait until last moment you think you can still survive(remember aim120s or ETs may already be heading for you). If it looks like he hasn't detected you, you can go into a merge if you want. (looks can be deceiving though, maybe he sees you even if you think he doesn't :))

 

Once the bad guy fires, it is best, in general, to return the favor :)

 

There is a case when it is really beneficial to fire an AMRAAM early: when the bad guy is flying high and not diving. Long shots have a much better chance of hitting a high-flying target since it can't maneuver too much, and due to high missile speed he will not have much time to react once the thing goes active.

[winchesterdelta1]

There is a case when it is really beneficial to fire an AMRAAM early: when the bad guy is flying high and not diving. Long shots have a much better chance of hitting a high-flying target since it can't maneuver too much, and due to high missile speed he will not have much time to react once the thing goes active.

 

He is right. i once had killed somebody with a 30 miles shot and got hit by a 30 miles shot. The key is to turn early. If you see him climb for you even at those distances start evasive right away. Most times i start cranking them from that altitude around 22 miles while trading altitude for energy. This way you your closing rate will be way higher. A lot of people don't expect a closing rate of 650/700 miles and react way to late. But it also can work against you. If you don't know what you are doing. If he fires when you are going 650/700 that missile will reach you way quicker than you think. I overlooked that aspect a lot, so started going evasive really late. To late.

Also when approaching a bandit it's not smart to go head on in most cases. Especially when he has a wingman. "Crank" the guy's (keep the locked up targets in your radar gimbal limits) turn in at high speed when at 14 miles and fire when lined up and go straight back cranking him in the same direction or opposite. Depends on what the target is doing. But be aware, targets that are paying attention will fire at you when turning into them. But if you have enough speed that incoming missile will be easy to defend against.

 

One major rule when playing online: Always expect the opponent to be the best of the best. Unless you watched the player list before :)

 

When 104th is on the server, be super careful. When Wodan, =C=, Stuge, Ober zeist, 108th, =BK= clan, =RAF= clan and some others i missed, be super careful as well. It will end up in a cat and mouse game if you are good enough against those guy's. But that's the only thing you get :)

 

And always fly with friends if possible. Your survival rate and kill rate will go up significantly.

[Buckeye]

Lots of great advice, thanks as always fellas. I will give all of this stuff a shot when I can hop on MP in a little bit. I am guilting of not doing a lot of the "best practices" mentioned (I fire from too high without trading altitude for speed, I don't crank, I fire from way too far out to force them defensive when it's not necessary, etc.), so the tips should prove to be quite useful.