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CDU Wind correction done right


Boris

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is the altitude you enter on the CDU expressed as MSL, AGL?

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I think MSL in thousands of feet.

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thanks

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is the altitude you enter on the CDU expressed as MSL, AGL?

 

Since, following Boris' guide, the altitude is derived from the Mission Editor, I'm pretty sure WildBill is correct and it's MSL.

 

Come to think about it, I think AGL wouldn't make any sense at all; if the flight took off from a high airport and weapons were employed in lower terrain, one might have to enter negative altitude values relative to the take-off altitude. Thus, MSL is the only reference that makes sense IMO. :thumbup:

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Hey Guys. I'm not that great with EXCEL but I tried to take all his information and plug it into an excel spreadsheet.

 

Maybe it will help someone out. I suck at math so I needed a faster way to get to the meat of it.

 

Plug in the information that the mission gives you in the green areas and it should spit out the right stuff on the bottom.

 

If there's any obvious mistakes please let me know and I'll try to find a way to fix it.

 

Thanks!

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/exyivdsrxtw9uv7/LASTE%20workbook.xlsx?dl=0

 

PS the preview looks like utter shit...so download it for it to work....don't judge me on the preview.

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Nice

 

+1 thanks

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Fórmulas are protected so I cant see if there are errors. What I can see is that you used the math that the OP stated which are rounded. You could use actual calculations for better precision.

 

For example 8m/s=15.55 knots instead of 16 (8*3600/1000/1.852)

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Fórmulas are protected so I cant see if there are errors. What I can see is that you used the math that the OP stated which are rounded. You could use actual calculations for better precision.

 

For example 8m/s=15.55 knots instead of 16 (8*3600/1000/1.852)

 

I thought about doing that...but I've always entered whole numbers into the cdu.

 

like when its xxx/xx for heading and speed...can we enter a decimal point?

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Hey Guys. I'm not that great with EXCEL but I tried to take all his information and plug it into an excel spreadsheet. [...]

 

Great idea! :thumbup:

 

A few remarks:

 

I don't have MS Office available. In LibreOffice 4.3, all I see is white text on white background, so it's unusable. Probably a problem with LibreOffice, but if there's something you can do to solve the problem, you'd broaden your audience.

Actually, it's looks a bit like the preview in Dropbox, so if you fix my problem, the preview over there would probably also look better (I wouldn't be surprised if they used a headless LibreOffice or OpenOffice to generate previews of Office files).

 

Why do you protect cells and formulas? It would be much easier for people to check your work if you didn't hide it.

 

Also, if cells were selectable, people could simply copy & paste the result, for instance so they can easily put it into a briefing. :thumbup:

 

Other than that, it looks fine and (after unprotecting it and changing the font colors) works excellent, good job! :)

capture_20150813_001.thumb.png.28ca04e84f2e36e1f7bcddb711d4e95e.png

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What I can see is that you used the math that the OP stated which are rounded. You could use actual calculations for better precision.

 

Well at the values where the deviation becomes noticeable, I don't think getting bombs on target would be among your priorities any longer... :smartass:

 

(Unless your math fails me, we get a 1 knot rounding error starting at 9 m/s, and a 2 knots rounding error starting at 27 m/s, a 3 knots rounding error starting at 45 m/s... :D)

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Also, the magnetic drift in DCS is 6° not 7°. Other than that it looks cool. Thanks for sharing.

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Well at the values where the deviation becomes noticeable, I don't think getting bombs on target would be among your priorities any longer... :smartass:

 

(Unless your math fails me, we get a 1 knot rounding error starting at 9 m/s, and a 2 knots rounding error starting at 27 m/s, a 3 knots rounding error starting at 45 m/s... :D)

 

Yeah, sorry my bad. As a pilot im used to full numbers rather than rounding, but it's true it doesnt make a difference, just trying to point out the proper math lines.

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Just came up with this: isnt the CDU Altitude entered in Feet?

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Great idea! :thumbup:

 

A few remarks:

 

I don't have MS Office available. In LibreOffice 4.3, all I see is white text on white background, so it's unusable. Probably a problem with LibreOffice, but if there's something you can do to solve the problem, you'd broaden your audience.

Actually, it's looks a bit like the preview in Dropbox, so if you fix my problem, the preview over there would probably also look better (I wouldn't be surprised if they used a headless LibreOffice or OpenOffice to generate previews of Office files).

 

Why do you protect cells and formulas? It would be much easier for people to check your work if you didn't hide it.

 

Also, if cells were selectable, people could simply copy & paste the result, for instance so they can easily put it into a briefing. :thumbup:

 

Other than that, it looks fine and (after unprotecting it and changing the font colors) works excellent, good job! :)

 

Because its a hack job lol...probably a much more elegant way to solve than what I did lol.

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Just came up with this: isnt the CDU Altitude entered in Feet?

 

Waypoint altitude: yes

Wind layer altitude: no, only thousands of feet as far as I am aware

 

Because its a hack job lol...probably a much more elegant way to solve than what I did lol.

 

No, the solution is good. I'd just say that white text on white background is an obvious problem, and even though it may be caused by the program I use to watch it, if you found a way to fix the problem, your tool would be even better. ;)

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yeah, thousands of feet that's it. So the excel should put that as a result right?

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I'm sorry to take up this issue after a year, but it has certainly not clear to me a matter.

 

The first post of this thread says: "Calculates the game engine for natural drop in wind speed at very low altitude, it needs to upscale the wind speed above. We Have Already Entered the wind speed for 10 meters, but the wind speed for MOST of the bottom layer of wind will be TWICE (2x) That Entered in the ME".

 

 

Please, could someone tell me: "Yes, shon, it is correct your Statement 1", or "Yes, shon, it is correct your Statement 2"?

 

Statement 1

"There is a bug only in the data that shows the CDU, multiplying by two the value of the real wind at low altitude, but the engine that handles the climatology NO really doubles that value. For example if in the mission editor are indicated 10m 08 knots, at 02 (500 metres) the reading in the CDU will be 16 knots, but really bombs will be affected by only 08 knots at 02 because the error is only in reading the wind in the CDU".

 

Statement 2

"Certainly there is a bug in the engine that handles the climatology, doubling the value entered in the mission editor. In this case the CDU works fine, reading the wind as it actually exists. Therefore, in the above exemple, bombs will be surprisingly and absurdly affected for a short time by 16 knots at 02".

 

 

Thank you for your understanding and wise answers.

 

shon


Edited by shon
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Statement 1

"There is a bug only in the data that shows the CDU, multiplying by two the value of the real wind at low altitude, but the engine that handles the climatology NO really doubles that value. For example if in the mission editor are indicated 10m 08 knots, at 02 (500 metres) the reading in the CDU will be 16 knots, but really bombs will be affected by only 08 knots at 02 because the error is only in reading the wind in the CDU".

 

Statement 2

"Certainly there is a bug in the engine that handles the climatology, doubling the value entered in the mission editor. In this case the CDU works fine, reading the wind as it actually exists. Therefore, in the above exemple, bombs will be surprisingly and absurdly affected for a short time by 16 knots at 02"

 

I know diddly-squat about meteorology and climatology, so I can only refer to posts here on the forum.

 

That said, both your Statements assume that there is a bug. I'm not aware that there is anything bugged (as in: factually wrong) with how DCS handles the wind layers. Can you point out why you think something is wrong there?

 

As I understand it from Boris' guide, it appears to be a natural phenomenon that the wind at ground level is much lighter than at higher altitudes. As an approximation, the wind at ground level seems to be roughly half of that at circa 500 meters.

 

So, when a mission designer enters a certain wind at ground level, the sim will double that value for the 2000 ft layer. And, knowing that the sim does this, we can enter these exact layers into the CDU, even though DCS doesn't show the value for the 2000 ft layer.

 

TL;DR As far as I know, there's nothing wrong with how DCS handles wind (at least not regarding wind layers), so I would assume both your statements are wrong.

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Just a few days ago, I did a quick mission up as I was doing a similar write up for my squad, and I used only the CDU values to enter the wind layers into LASTE. I had a 90 degree shift in wind from 10m to 2000m and another 90 degree shift from 2000 to 10000m. I ended up putting layers into the CDU for 0 (ground level), 1k, 2k, 4k, 6k, and 10k feet. Using values shown on the CDU, the CCIP solution for a pair of Mk-82's was dead accurate from a release 7k feet AGL.

 

As far as I'm concerned, values in the CDU are correct when in a mission.

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Can you point out why you think something is wrong there?

 

...

 

 

TL;DR As far as I know, there's nothing wrong with how DCS handles wind (at least not regarding wind layers), so I would assume both your statements are wrong.

 

Thanks for your answer, Yurgon.

 

 

Perhaps the first question we should ask is:

 

 

Is correct this sequence of increase/decrease of the wind in a real atmospheric world??:

 

10m 020° 4m/s

500m 020° 8m/s

2000m 310° 6m/s

8000m 270° 8m/s

 

If the answer is "YES", so DCS works fine. Sorry for the confusion.

But if the answer is "NO"... why DCS doubles the wind in 500 meters? What criteria the real world??

 

I have assumed that the correct answer is "NO". Therefore, as it seems unlikely that DCS has been "invented" a transition of winds at their discretion, I have assumed that the wind increases significantly from 10 to 500 meters (in only 500 meters!), and then "mysteriously" decreases to 2000, where again begins to rise ... must be due to a BUG. That's the reason why I wrote that.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

shon


Edited by shon
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I had a 90 degree shift in wind from 10m to 2000m and another 90 degree shift from 2000 to 10000m.

 

 

Do you remember if the SPEED of the wind in 500m was the same or upper that in 10 meters?

 

Perhaps you despised that value in 500 and you were directly from 10 meters to 2000 meters. It's what I've done until today..., but after reading this thread, I tried to be more detailed by adding one more layer in 500 meters, and that's when I began to not understand why the wind increases significantly from 10 to 500 meters, and then "mysteriously" decreases to 2000, where again begins to rise ... There seems not to be a logical behavior, right?


Edited by shon
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I've got screenshots of the CDU at the altitudes I said in that post. When I finish work I will look at the settings I put in the editor and post them along with the values I got from the CDU at each altitude.

 

Edit: And yes it doesn't seem logical that it doubles and then reduces to the 2000m if this is the case. I will check tonight also, with 10m and 2000m at the same speed and post the same altitude / speed results from that too.


Edited by Steggles

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Perhaps the first question we should ask is:

 

 

Is correct this sequence of increase/decrease of the wind in a real atmospheric world??:

 

10m 020° 4m/s

500m 020° 8m/s

2000m 310° 6m/s

8000m 270° 8m/s

 

Let me once again note that I don't have a clue about real world atmospheric effects. :smartass:

 

I guess DCS isn't dead accurate when it comes to wind modeling, but I also think that, as an approximation of real world effects, it's probably doing a relatively good job.

 

The answer to your question, though, could only be given by someone who knows this stuff, and I'm definitely not that person (at least not now; should I ever study meteorology and find out how this works, I'll gladly get back to you :D).

 

In any case, that's an interesting topic and it would be cool if someone who knows about it could chime in on the discussion.

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Do you remember if the SPEED of the wind in 500m was the same or upper that in 10 meters?

 

Perhaps you despised that value in 500 and you were directly from 10 meters to 2000 meters. It's what I've done until today..., but after reading this thread, I tried to be more detailed by adding one more layer in 500 meters, and that's when I began to not understand why the wind increases significantly from 10 to 500 meters, and then "mysteriously" decreases to 2000, where again begins to rise ... There seems not to be a logical behavior, right?

 

Ok, so it turns out I didn't save the mission I did the other day, so the wind values I used in the editor didn't save. But it is correct that the mid layer between 10m and 2000m is nearly double. I did another run with these settings in the editor-

10m - 0 @ 10

2000m - 0 @ 10

10000m - 0 @ 15

 

Vs CDU measurement. 0 was on takeoff run before rotation at an airfield approx 70ft ASL.

0 - 173/15

500ft - 173/36

1000ft - 173/40

2k - 173/41

4k - 173/25

6k - 173/19

10k - 173/19

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Let me once again note that I don't have a clue about real world atmospheric effects. :smartass:

Me neither :smartass:. That is why we appreciate someone who knew about this issue could confirm this crucial point in the discussion, because if we do not have clear, we can not discuss whether DCS does well or poorly.

 

 

Ok, so it turns out I didn't save the mission I did the other day, so the wind values I used in the editor didn't save. But it is correct that the mid layer between 10m and 2000m is nearly double. I did another run with these settings in the editor-

10m - 0 @ 10

2000m - 0 @ 10

10000m - 0 @ 15

 

Vs CDU measurement. 0 was on takeoff run before rotation at an airfield approx 70ft ASL.

0 - 173/15

500ft - 173/36

1000ft - 173/40

2k - 173/41

4k - 173/25

6k - 173/19

10k - 173/19

 

Thanks Steggles by your tests (I'm on vacation and I have not access to my PC). Really you have confirmed that DCS doubles wind to 2,000 meters, then fit the established in the mission editor, all progressively, and exactly as the author of this thread (Boris) wrote on his first post.

 

I do not know if this wind behavior is correct (I think not). This is the first essential point we would have to know.

 

If is correct this wind behavior in real life, perfect. Nothing more to discuss. If not correct, then we must assume that is a BUG that we should expect that DCS correct in new updates. It would certainly be an absurd bug, but that it is.


Edited by shon
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