Why don't tanks have periscopes for turret down?

[guitarxe]

I don't really know much about tank combat tactics (modern or otherwise), but I've been reading up and read some accounts how, during WW2, some tank commanders would take their tanks up to the crest of a hill while turret down, then they would pop open the hatch, stand up on the seat, and take a look over the hill with binoculars. This would give them just enough height to peer over the hill, but make themselves practically impossible to spot.

 

I'm wondering why wasn't some kind of periscope used for this? Even in modern tanks, the commander's hatch is pretty low to the turret (for obvious reasons), and I doubt it allows for covert peering over hills. But I haven't really ever seen any kind of periscope or something used to look over, and I don't think any commander would climb out of the hatch to take a look in modern combat?

[Scrim]

Well, there were the regular periscopes for when they were buttoned down, but having periscopes that you could raise would take up a lot of space in the very crammed crew compartment. And practically, a lot of tank commanders found the regular periscopes useless for observation, so having an extendable would probably not help much.

[Davis0079]

....the periscope you are thinking of in modern combat is call a predator drone or infantry.....

 

....its like asking why Hueys dont come with hellfire missiles....answer...its not an anti armor device....

 

...most modern main battle tanks are not considered good scout vehicles...and the addition of a raise-able periscope sounds like a good penetration in the armor system for an explosion to come through at....and lord help you if you happen to be looking through it at the time of the blast...shattered glass and mirrors arent good for the eyes...

 

 

just an opinion

[maturin]

The periscope could be mounted on the exterior of the turret, but then you would be limited to a small camera with fiberoptic cable and a TV screen. Useful at short ranges, maybe, but probably not providing the resolution necessary to scan the countryside from a high ridgeline.

[Cp]

Remote controlled weapons are becoming more and more common on tanks and other vehicles, like the CROWS on the M1 Abrams TUSK. That should be sufficient to see above things turret down and all.

 

Periscopes on land vehicles do exist though, Like the one on the fennek recon vehicle:

[Davis0079]

now a mounted camera is a damn fine idea

[jib]

If you are going to use cameras why not have a launch able UAV with cameras. it is like a 1000ft long periscope.

 

Edit: opps didn't see Davis0079 post were he said use a predator sort of similar but it would be more like a periscope if each vehicle had there own UAV.

Edited June 6, 2014 by jib

[Scrim]

Though UAVs exist as they do today, you have to be drunk of your tits to think that every lowly tank commander will be given access to one. So some sort of surveillance equipment is a good idea.

 

In comparison to WW2 tanks though, I think that even tanks without TUSK and CROWS can look around without breaking cover, if they're Western ones, since they all have very good optics that allow them to watch things from so far away that the binoculars their WW2 counterparts used would be of little use.

[Nightmare515]

Modern tanks do, at least the M1A2 SEP tanks do. The gunners sights are on top of the turret and can see when the tank is in the deflade. They also have a tank commander sight (I forgot the actual name its been awhile, we just called it the R2D2 thing lol) which is also mounted on top of the turret and can see over hills and other obstacles.

 

It proves challenging when training new tank gunners because they often times forget that the sights for the gun are actually higher up than the actual gun itself so they would routinely shoot the side of the hill on accident.

[OutOnTheOP]

Nightmare, I think you're thinking of the CITV, commander's independent thermal viewer... and yes, it's mounted plenty high up to see over terrain while exposing nothing of the tank but the CITV, antennas, and the flexible-mount machine guns. LeClerc and Leo 2A5 and up have a similar system, and Leo 2A4 has a high-mounted rotating panoramic telescope at a similar height above the turret. I'm not sure that telescoping-mast sights or higher mounts would be terribly practical on MBTs

[Nightmare515]

Nightmare, I think you're thinking of the CITV, commander's independent thermal viewer... and yes, it's mounted plenty high up to see over terrain while exposing nothing of the tank but the CITV, antennas, and the flexible-mount machine guns. LeClerc and Leo 2A5 and up have a similar system, and Leo 2A4 has a high-mounted rotating panoramic telescope at a similar height above the turret. I'm not sure that telescoping-mast sights or higher mounts would be terribly practical on MBTs

 

Yes CITV lol, its been a couple years since I was a Tank Commander (dont tell my guys I forgot the name of that thing they'll kill me).

 

Sad part is that I forgot the name so quickly yet I used it everyday for 6 years.

 

My brain has shifted from tanks to helicopters I only have room for so much information up there and Im forgetting much of what I learned as a tanker unfortunately...

[shagrat]

Why doesn't every infantry man have a periscope or at least some field glasses for surveillance? Lying low in a ditch and watching the enemy through a periscope attached to your Squad MG or M4 would be nice, too?

Guess it boils down to money and tasking... snipers do have them, grunts don't!

[Isegrim]

I dont know whats the exact Point of this Topic?

Tanks use Commander Periscopes since around 20 years.:dontgetit:

[Scrim]

Why doesn't every infantry man have a periscope or at least some field glasses for surveillance? Lying low in a ditch and watching the enemy through a periscope attached to your Squad MG or M4 would be nice, too?

Guess it boils down to money and tasking... snipers do have them, grunts don't!

 

I think it's a lot more down to the fact that there is little magnification, and a very small FoV. That doesn't make for good situational awareness, or good shooting. I don't think even sniper teams use telescopes nowadays.

[Isegrim]

 

Developed from Russia or Germany in WWI its not sure who developed and used it first. Both sides also used a different type of this for Close Quarters Combat in Citys.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Isegrim

[shagrat]

Ja, but this was limited to Command/observation posts and usually commanders. Nobody had the idea to give it to every grunt. As well today forward observers like FIST Tanks have very sophisticated Periscope surveillance assemblies... see the M113 FIST of old or the Fennek. Still it is not implemented in every Leopard or M1 Tank. As well for ground troops. Even today only Sniperteam's spotters have them or patrols rarely when needing them, but not a normal grunt and his M4... funny if one thinks how a little webcam linked to a smartphone could save a lot of headshots?

[shagrat]

I don't think even sniper teams use telescopes nowadays.

 

Most definitely they do! Especially as the shooter usually gets clearance from the spotter as he has to stay on target and firm on the trigger. The spotter has the larger field of view from his periscope and calls the shot, most of times.

 

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_team

Edited June 8, 2014 by shagrat

[PFunk1606688187]

I remember reading an AAR at the back of the FM for Stryker Drivers that described how against all training LAV commanders in Iraq found themselves needing to turn out physically to direct their vehicles in combat as their turned in optics were insufficient for battlefield SA. Might have been restricted to urban situations, can't recall exactly.

[siipperi]

Modern tanks have camera periscopes and some that doesn't those don't need them anyway. Gaining significant advantage with submarine type of periscope is pretty minimal on most conditions. There is reason why there is scout infantry..

 

And rl experience: driving and commanding a tank with just prisms is pretty fun. But to contrast driving with old russian infrared nvg is the worst experience ever... You barely see anything and fov and fisheye effect makes it almost impossible to judge real distances on nature. On bright nights I must say I would drive my head out of cockpit than use that old nvg technology. Ofc it's totally different thing with modern nvgs.

And driving with prism isnt so hard as many seem to think. You get used to it really quickly and modern tanks have waay better fov and prism placements than tanks that I have driven.

[Isegrim]

Still it is not implemented in every Leopard or M1 Tank.

It is. I have watched many hours through it myself. :smilewink:

[shagrat]

Sorry, misleading. I was referring to the FIST periscope. The Leo's "Kommandanten Peri" is standard by design, but it is just a little elevated over the gun turret. :D

[Isegrim]

Sorry, misleading. I was referring to the FIST periscope. The Leo's "Kommandanten Peri" is standard by design, but it is just a little elevated over the gun turret. :D

 

And thats perfect like it is.:D

A Tank isnt a U-Boat And has to use his Weapons nearly in the same line of sight.

But its still high enough to do first class reconnaissance.

[Scrim]

Most definitely they do! Especially as the shooter usually gets clearance from the spotter as he has to stay on target and firm on the trigger. The spotter has the larger field of view from his periscope and calls the shot, most of times.

 

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_team

 

That's a spotting scope, not a periscope.

[shagrat]

Has a mirror system to have sight in heads down position? At least the one I have in mind. Possibly different versions in the field. Anyway, the point was, there are a lot of periscope like sights in use, but mostly specialised, and not what we expect as a elevating all-surround view scope with wide angle FOV. ;)

[Scrim]

Nope. Last time snipers used periscopes was in WW2.