50 cal Ballistics/Aircraft Damage Model Questions/Concerns

[OutOnTheOP]

Pulling out of a dive can EASILY dewing a mustang if you arent careful. They snap clean off for me around 8G

 

I think they have (after player feedback and referring to the stress limits and safety margins) increased the Mustang's wing strength: I have pegged out the G-meter at around 10 during a pull-out from a rocket run at around 400 IAS, and not lost the wings. Granted, I started with 60% fuel, and I think I had earlier expended a small amount of MG ammo, so I wasn't at full weight, but still, it pulled 10 just fine.

[Lilkiki]

Hi all,

 

here is an .acmi (Tacview) Player P-51 V/S AI Dora

 

150 hits in the Dora, he was still flying .... ('til Kamikaze end)

 

There's definitly a problem with AI damages :huh:

p-51vsfw190ai-130hits.zip

[NineLine]

Does Tacview use the same data as the briefing file to count hits?

[Lilkiki]

Does Tacview use the same data as the briefing file to count hits?

 

Thanks to you to be aware of user's doubt ;)

 

Tacview use the same data's, i'm sure at 99%

 

 

I've made another quick test,

I've modified the M2 machine guns of the P-51 with the Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 (of DCS russian jet planes) (Nota : No valid "integity check" in MP with this)

The P-51 is a bit more heavy with this "tweak"

 

Only 9 rounds of the GSh-30 was necessary to explode the Dora in pieces.

 

I don't know if this example is good (modern canons must be far more powerfull I guess) but IMHO 100/150 hits of Browning-M2 .50 caliber to the Dora and still in one piece is not reasonable

 

Use this link :

 

DCS Belsimtek F-86 Sabre seems also to be affected by this problem.

 

EDIT : same sort of problem with DORA ! : http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128419

 

Here is the .acmi :

p-51vsfw190ai-9hits-with-Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-30-1.zip

Edited August 12, 2014 by Lilkiki

[Lostaviator]

Was this single player or Multi? I've been playing mostly multi player and the 50 cal seems to work ok to me. More powerful than they ever were in IL2 IMO. If you land a good burst on the fuselage or wing root it seems to tear up the Dora pretty good. Having said that the few times I have played it in single player mode it seems to take more hits. Is that possible that there is a difference? I don't know!

[Lilkiki]

Was this single player or Multi? I've been playing mostly multi player and the 50 cal seems to work ok to me. More powerful than they ever were in IL2 IMO. If you land a good burst on the fuselage or wing root it seems to tear up the Dora pretty good. Having said that the few times I have played it in single player mode it seems to take more hits. Is that possible that there is a difference? I don't know!

 

 

This was in SINGLE PLAYER VS AI (as mentionned)

 

In MP, there is no problem with M-2 machineguns, it is the AI who seems to get "massive armor" ;)

[Lostaviator]

Gotcha Sry I missed the AI part.

[Chief1942]

It needs attention

 

I know some are admitting to a discrepency between "visual damage" and damage that inhibits performance, but look at the screenshot and tell me if you've EVER had your P-51 look like this and still fly like it just came off the factory floor. There has to be some relation to reality in the 1 vs 1 arena or it is simply an exercise in futility. By the way, according to the debriefing, this bird took 160 hits and it never phased it.

[fastfreddie]

Was this single player or Multi? I've been playing mostly multi player and the 50 cal seems to work ok to me. More powerful than they ever were in IL2 IMO. If you land a good burst on the fuselage or wing root it seems to tear up the Dora pretty good. Having said that the few times I have played it in single player mode it seems to take more hits. Is that possible that there is a difference? I don't know!

 

Its pretty safe to say that weapons testing against the Ai in no way reflects the damage models of human aircraft. It may be harder to get a shot on human players but they go down much easier whether its total destruction or losing an engine.

[fastfreddie]

I know some are admitting to a discrepency between "visual damage" and damage that inhibits performance, but look at the screenshot and tell me if you've EVER had your P-51 look like this and still fly like it just came off the factory floor. There has to be some relation to reality in the 1 vs 1 arena or it is simply an exercise in futility. By the way, according to the debriefing, this bird took 160 hits and it never phased it.

 

Landed 37 20mm shots and more than that in 13mm with some bringing in much higher numbers. 160 hit just means you had great target practice against the AI. :pilotfly:

[USARStarkey]

Except that my tests were against humans....and the average was 117, the highest was in the 190s.....

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

interesting, didnt know that online it shows how many hits you got on a target...how did you do that?

[otto]

Maybe he used Tacview .

[USARStarkey]

interesting, didnt know that online it shows how many hits you got on a target...how did you do that?

 

I used tacview, which has been stated before. I also verified it against DCS's report, which appears if you are the host.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

i dont know, i dont see any problems with the ballistics, neither with the 50cals nor with the cannons of the fw190...both are really effective and able to down the oponent with a one second burst, and often it doesnt even take that long.

 

the visual damage model though could of course be improved, but we know that this is in the works.

[USARStarkey]

i dont know, i dont see any problems with the ballistics, neither with the 50cals nor with the cannons of the fw190...both are really effective and able to down the oponent with a one second burst, and often it doesnt even take that long.

 

the visual damage model though could of course be improved, but we know that this is in the works.

 

1 second amounts to 80 rounds. As has already be established, that is not usually enough for a kill. It is also not likely that all 80 rounds hit. Which means I will need quite a few one second bursts. What should be happening is a one second burst that lands perhaps 20-30 hits and destroys that target on average. Which isnt what normally happens. This makes it insanely hard to hill aircraft using BNZ, because you have very brief windows to shoot, and its more or less impossible to consistently land 80-100 hits in one singular burst, or even 2. Gun camera footage, pilot accounts, the doctrines of the various air-forces, various website databases, and even cursory comparisons to other sims make it clear that DCS's WW2 fighter damage model is far too tough. Go shoot an F-15 in DCS with the P-51. The F-15 supposedly has a sophisticated DMG model according to its page. You can cripple/kill a eagle with a fraction of the rounds needed to down a human ww2 fighter right now, and that's a plane that is many times the size of a 51 or 190, and far more structurally sound.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

you maybe kill an f15 quicker because you maybe land more hits on it than on a p51/fw190....as stated a 1second burst or even shorter is usually enough if you get good hits!keep practicing and one day you will agree.nothing wrong with the ballistics.

 

look for example at the sharpshooting AI shooting at each other.very often they only need a split second to down the oponent.same is true for human players if bullets hit well...one important thing to keep in mind is, that dcs models overheating of guns...and that is the point where many people do it "wrong".they keep the trigger pressed.in my experience this will lead to poor results.its way more effective to aim, click the trigger and release it immediately.if the you hit, there is a good chance that the enemy goes down.if its still flying its badly damaged.just do it again.

Edited August 23, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[Robo.]

you maybe kill an f15 quicker because you maybe land more hits on it than on a p51/fw190....as stated a 1second burst or even shorter is usually enough if you get good hits!keep practicing and one day you will agree.nothing wrong with the ballistics.

 

look for example at the sharpshooting AI shooting at each other.very often they only need a split second to down the oponent.same is true for human players if bullets hit well...one important thing to keep in mind is, that dcs models overheating of guns...and that is the point where many people do it "wrong".they keep the trigger pressed.in my experience this will lead to poor results.its way more effective to aim, click the trigger and release it immediately.if the you hit, there is a good chance that the enemy goes down.if its still flying its badly damaged.just to it again.

 

+1 on this, spot on!

 

I also struggled with aerial gunnery in DCS at first, as it's very different to the sims I used to play previously, but after a bit of practice and getting used to it I am certain that there is nothing wrong at all with .50 cal, if he doesn't go down from good position, I can only blame my hands and eyes. ;)

[Bushmanni]

Have you been able to destroy the engine of P-51 or Fw-190? It seems to me like the plane disintegrates or catches fire much before the engine quits due to damage. If I rake the enemy plane from nose to tail with a long burst I score lots of hits to cockpit, tail and wings but no hits to the engine and the plane keeps flying like nothing happened. I would think that it takes only few hits to the engine at most to kill it with .50 cal.

[OutOnTheOP]

you maybe kill an f15 quicker because you maybe land more hits on it than on a p51/fw190....as stated a 1second burst or even shorter is usually enough if you get good hits!keep practicing and one day you will agree.nothing wrong with the ballistics.

 

look for example at the sharpshooting AI shooting at each other.very often they only need a split second to down the oponent.same is true for human players if bullets hit well...one important thing to keep in mind is, that dcs models overheating of guns...and that is the point where many people do it "wrong".they keep the trigger pressed.in my experience this will lead to poor results.its way more effective to aim, click the trigger and release it immediately.if the you hit, there is a good chance that the enemy goes down.if its still flying its badly damaged.just do it again.

 

That's simply not true. The AI often takes a 10-15 second burst to down each other. This is also true of the AI FW190 firing at the AI P-51. As to human players, I know *I* have taken a LOT of hits before without going down (or even any significant trouble!). I think both the .50 and the MG151/20 are about half the strength they should be... but the .50 suffers a lot more for the loss of power. The biggest problem is that hits appear to be tracked against hit zones, and do not track (or run a probability table to adjudicate) hits against specific components. Basically, it might be possible to put 100 bullets in a wing without hitting the wing spar, but one hit in the wing spar is likely enough to snap it and kill the plane- and similar holds true for engine blocks, pilots, and (in the 190's case) cannon ammo storage. They need an actual interior ballistics model, or, failing that, a probabilistic damage model, instead of a component-fails-at-X-hitpoint-threshold model. If the model already IS probabilistic, it needs some serious tweaking.

Edited August 23, 2014 by OutOnTheOP

[Altflieger]

I'm wondering if the MG 151/20 and the .50 cal's aren't modelled the same in terms of damage effects. There seems to be some kind of points scoring system used in the debrief screen, as in the figure shown in brackets. Certainly the effect of German mineshells seem very muted. Until someone from the dev team gives a thorough and in depth explanation of how ballistics are modelled, we're all in the dark....

[otto]

Souldn't there be a way to choose ammo type like just minengeschoss if i want ?

And is there any way to fire just the cannons on the dora ?

 

Have't had much flying time but would be nice to see if a turning plane that pulls G get's left without a wing faster by gunfire.

[Robo.]

Souldn't there be a way to choose ammo type like just minengeschoss if i want ?

 

Well I really hope this will never happen in DCS!

 

And is there any way to fire just the cannons on the dora ?

 

Not at the moment, unfortunately. Hopefully in a future update.

 

And why are we asking for over-modelling these guns exactly? :D Because it's easier than learning to shoot correctly? :doh:

[USARStarkey]

you maybe kill an f15 quicker because you maybe land more hits on it than on a p51/fw190....as stated a 1second burst or even shorter is usually enough if you get good hits!keep practicing and one day you will agree.nothing wrong with the ballistics.

 

look for example at the sharpshooting AI shooting at each other.very often they only need a split second to down the oponent.same is true for human players if bullets hit well...one important thing to keep in mind is, that dcs models overheating of guns...and that is the point where many people do it "wrong".they keep the trigger pressed.in my experience this will lead to poor results.its way more effective to aim, click the trigger and release it immediately.if the you hit, there is a good chance that the enemy goes down.if its still flying its badly damaged.just do it again.

 

My aim is just fine thank you, the patronizing remark wasn't needed. And you shouldnt have to sniper to death every airplane. The Sniper like abilities of the AI are not realistic for a human being to do consistently, and therefore do not reflect real life human gunnery, and are not relevant when adjusting the damage model. Also, I shot at the F-15 in tiny squirts to keep the number of hits low. I killed in in 40, so my gunnery has nothing to do with it.

[otto]

Well I really hope this will never happen in DCS!

 

 

 

Not at the moment, unfortunately. Hopefully in a future update.

 

And why are we asking for over-modelling these guns exactly? :D Because it's easier than learning to shoot correctly? :doh:

 

 

You should have posted info about the possibility to choose ammo type or lack of in real life.

If you don't know that don't make comments regarding ammo type and my shooting.

Btw how do you know when the guns are overmodeled ?

Edited August 23, 2014 by otto