Nose wheel steering issues

[effte]

As per the TO1 F-86F-1, the nose wheel steering (NWS) should not engage until you align the pedals with the nose wheel. Currently, it remembers the position the pedals held the last time it was activated and actively steers the nose wheel to this position, before aligning it with the current pedal position.

 

I e, if you

 

1) steer left

2) deactivate NWS

3) turn right by using the brakes, thereby turning the nose wheel to the right

4) position the pedals for a continued right turn

5) activate NWS while holding the pedals right

 

the NWS first turns to the left, before coming back to the right.

 

Edit: To stress the point, there's a "memory function" which definitely shouldn't be there. The NWS remembers that the pedals were to the left previously and goes left before coming back right.

 

It should do nothing until you have the pedals aligned with the NWS, i e if you instead centered the pedals, you'd need to first move them to the right before you could again steer left.

 

I originally interpreted the attached -1 text as indicating the nose wheel should be free swivelling when NWS is not activated, thus permitting tight turns using differential braking if required. There is, however, the requirement to disengage the nose wheel towing release pin before towing the aircraft in order to allow the nose wheel swivel. I need to do more reading before having a firm opinion on this. Perhaps the free swivelling range with NWS deactivated is only that allowed by the NWS acting as a shimmy damper. In that case, you could go outside of the 21 degree movement range by turning left, deactivating the system and turning more left using differential braking. You'd then have to use right diff braking to be able to reengage the NWS, as per the attached text.

 

Cheers,

/Fred

Edited August 12, 2014 by effte

[cichlidfan]

I read that before the Sabre was released. It confused me then and it still confuses me.

[effte]

Essentially: When you activate the NWS, the nose wheel will not align itself with your pedals. You have to align the pedals with the nose wheel and until you do, you cannot control the nose wheel. Once you have brought them in line with each other, they are connected and you have steering.

 

I have to read up on the mechanics, but picture it as a pin dropping in between the pedals and the nose wheel to connect them. You have to go "fetch" the nose wheel wherever it is at with the pedals, align them and have the pin drop in. Then you have steering. If the nose wheel is pointed left and you have your pedals to steer right, the pin does not drop in and you do not have steering.

 

Cheers,

/Fred

[cichlidfan]

That's about the way I thought I understood it but if that is the case, what is supposed to happen when you land? Does everything align just because you are rolling forward and the pedals are at the neutral position?

[effte]

NWS is not intended to be used during the landing roll. The NWS system will act as a shimmy damper but do no steering.

Edited August 6, 2014 by effte

[ggoodavish]

It would be nice to be able to activate NWS and have it remain active until you press that button again. It is a pain to constantly have to hold the switch down. or do you?

[Scrim]

Nah. For starters, it's realistic. Second, I feel that since you only do it when taxiing, you can just move your hand down on the stick and depress the NWS button with your index finger if it feels uncomfortable to do it with your pinkie finger for longer durations.

[Sabredog]

Yes, I noticed this as well. There seems to be an issue with the nosewheel 'jumping' back to the previous position it was in when the NWS button was last held, instead of it 'activating' when the button is depressed and the rudder pedals are aligned with the nosewheel's current position.

[cichlidfan]

It would be nice to be able to activate NWS and have it remain active until you press that button again. It is a pain to constantly have to hold the switch down. or do you?

 

Easily done with an external program or, possibly, even an in game lua mod.

[Davee]

It would be nice to be able to activate NWS and have it remain active until you press that button again. It is a pain to constantly have to hold the switch down. or do you?

 

With my TM WH HOTAS I have this set and I prefer it to holding a button in.

[311Gryphon]

NWS doesn't activate sometime

 

Sometimes my NWS won't activate after my start up. I have the wheel centered and my pedals centered and when I hold the button and push the pedals the wheel stays forward. I thought I might just need to start rolling to turn so I push the thrust up and it does start to turn a little, but not enough to make the corner. The first time I tried it the thing worked fine but sometimes it just won't make the corner even at slow speeds. I guess I'll have to brake.

 

Edit: I'm not sure why it wouldn't let me turn the nose wheel but it did start letting me. I'm assuming that it was some combination of the NWS system on the F86 and my own confusion that made it not respond. It seems to be working now though I don't know what I'm doing differently.

Edited August 9, 2014 by 311Gryphon

[Razgriz_37]

With my TM WH HOTAS I have this set and I prefer it to holding a button in.

 

Same here Catseye, I have Thrustmaster T.Flight Stick HOTAS, I programmed a button on the Flight Stick for NWS. While taxiing I engage NWS by holding the button down until I complete my turn, straighten up and then release the button the by having in a center/neutral position so I don't have to turn the nose wheel out to find the range, it's already back in the initial position.

[pkweagle]

F-86 Nose Wheel Steering

 

I have read the thread on NWS remarks. The problem seems to be that the game is actually working as designed. Regardless of how the actual aircraft operates the NWS that exists in the current game is a problem. I believe the game should be dedicated to promote a pleasant enjoyable event for the user. No question DCS has the best flight sim on the market. Having said that how did this issue make it through initial trials and reviews? As a retired Air Force person with substantial single engine jet experience...I can assure every reader any U.S. WarPlane pilot worth his or her salt would find nws operation as currently exists a very serious and unacceptable safety condition and absolutely refuse to taxi... much less become airborne and attempt a landing.

 

Its great that DCS takes special pain to mock the real equipment...but not at the expense of logic and enjoyment. The add-on is $50. Most players have more invested in DCS than any other piece of software including Windows.

 

When you operate the game/equipment and you turn left...the software should turn left consistent with your level of control. Anything other than that brings extra unneeded attention and takes away from an otherwise great video experience.

 

Its very hard to believe this actually represents intentional software development.

[drsgfire]

I have read the thread on NWS remarks. The problem seems to be that the game is actually working as designed. Regardless of how the actual aircraft operates the NWS that exists in the current game is a problem. I believe the game should be dedicated to promote a pleasant enjoyable event for the user. No question DCS has the best flight sim on the market. Having said that how did this issue make it through initial trials and reviews? As a retired Air Force person with substantial single engine jet experience...I can assure every reader any U.S. WarPlane pilot worth his or her salt would find nws operation as currently exists a very serious and unacceptable safety condition and absolutely refuse to taxi... much less become airborne and attempt a landing.

 

 

 

Its great that DCS takes special pain to mock the real equipment...but not at the expense of logic and enjoyment. The add-on is $50. Most players have more invested in DCS than any other piece of software including Windows.

 

 

 

When you operate the game/equipment and you turn left...the software should turn left consistent with your level of control. Anything other than that brings extra unneeded attention and takes away from an otherwise great video experience.

 

 

 

Its very hard to believe this actually represents intentional software development.

 

 

Just wondering… have you set any curves on your rudder and brakes axis's? When I first got the Sabre I was so excited to start flying that I overlooked setting curves and I crashed on taxi and takeoff a few times and then went back and toned them down. I run a 35 to 40% curve and 5 to 8% dead zone on the rudder and pedals. I would give that a shot first and like me, I'm sure you will see the difference is very noticeable.

 

I think when the developers make the control surfaces they provide more that enough throw for all user sticks, throttles and pedals. It kind of like setting up an RC plane. You can make the surfaces go very extreme but most kit providers give you a recommended throw gauge so you get the initial correct setup.

 

I think it would be nice if there was some kind of built in flight test that would help you make sure your controls were matching authentically to the original bird. Though, this is probably one of those things that is down right impossible with all the different setups.

[effte]

Updated the first post to clarify the real main issue, lest it get lost.

[pkweagle]

Well...I am going to give this a shot. I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. Steer the SU33 then go steer the F86. I'll go out on a limb here and say you'll probably notice a difference. There is nothing here about curves or ratios or dead zones. The damn steering fails to follow the users input. After you make an initial turn the software actually pulls you back in the last known directional input and you have to fight it to remain where you want it to go. I notice the F15 is also sluggish to turn for some reason. Sir this is a video game...software for pleasure and enjoyment...expensive software at that. What possible reason exists to cause the F86 to steer any different than the SU33? It can't be realism. No pilot would ever accept a jet aircraft for flight that steers like this....such a failure represents the worst in safety....experiencing such a problem after take off is one thing. Knowingly flying a multi-million dollar piece of equipment where such a problem is known in advance is criminal.

 

You said this could be one of those things that are downright impossible with all the different setups. You were making a joke right? Its software. The programmers did this...they can make the aircraft do whatever they damn well please. If they want it to perform loops at 3400 feet that's what will happen.

 

Every customer that buys the F86 knows the game is flawed...and so do you.

[drsgfire]

Well...I am going to give this a shot. I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. Steer the SU33 then go steer the F86. I'll go out on a limb here and say you'll probably notice a difference. There is nothing here about curves or ratios or dead zones. The damn steering fails to follow the users input. After you make an initial turn the software actually pulls you back in the last known directional input and you have to fight it to remain where you want it to go. I notice the F15 is also sluggish to turn for some reason. Sir this is a video game...software for pleasure and enjoyment...expensive software at that. What possible reason exists to cause the F86 to steer any different than the SU33? It can't be realism. No pilot would ever accept a jet aircraft for flight that steers like this....such a failure represents the worst in safety....experiencing such a problem after take off is one thing. Knowingly flying a multi-million dollar piece of equipment where such a problem is known in advance is criminal.

 

You said this could be one of those things that are downright impossible with all the different setups. You were making a joke right? Its software. The programmers did this...they can make the aircraft do whatever they damn well please. If they want it to perform loops at 3400 feet that's what will happen.

 

Every customer that buys the F86 knows the game is flawed...and so do you.

 

 

I hope your not upset with me. That's kinda how it sounds but anyway what I was saying about the different stick setups can make sense. Like when I move my stick to the extreme right, in game the virtual stick should exactly match my physical movement. Well it doesn't. That's all I was saying about that.

 

Now when it comes to steering the Sabre around on the ground, yes I'll admit there are issues but if you use high curves it is very manageable. I have been flying it a lot and I have not had a single incident taxing or taking off. Landing on the other hand is still a challenge if you engage nose steering at to high a speed. It gets very uncontrollable quickly.

 

I have even posted video on YouTube about bugs I have found while flying the Sabre. So… trust me I know it has issues, but I also know it's still in beta. There is no extra information on the forums to suggest that they won't fix it later on.

 

The best and really only thing you can do at the moment to help you enjoy the aircraft is to try the curves and deadzone adjustments.

 

Good luck with your flying and I hope it works for you.

[SkateZilla]

Well...I am going to give this a shot. I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. Steer the SU33 then go steer the F86. I'll go out on a limb here and say you'll probably notice a difference. There is nothing here about curves or ratios or dead zones. The damn steering fails to follow the users input. After you make an initial turn the software actually pulls you back in the last known directional input and you have to fight it to remain where you want it to go. I notice the F15 is also sluggish to turn for some reason. Sir this is a video game...software for pleasure and enjoyment...expensive software at that. What possible reason exists to cause the F86 to steer any different than the SU33? It can't be realism. No pilot would ever accept a jet aircraft for flight that steers like this....such a failure represents the worst in safety....experiencing such a problem after take off is one thing. Knowingly flying a multi-million dollar piece of equipment where such a problem is known in advance is criminal.

 

You said this could be one of those things that are downright impossible with all the different setups. You were making a joke right? Its software. The programmers did this...they can make the aircraft do whatever they damn well please. If they want it to perform loops at 3400 feet that's what will happen.

 

Every customer that buys the F86 knows the game is flawed...and so do you.

 

F-15C AFM NWS is Perfectly Fine, there's a NWS Button you have to press to turn sharper.

 

SU-33 is a Modern Aircraft, F-86F is a 50 year old aircraft, Hydraulic Systems were completely different back then.

 

What the programmers want vs Realistic Simulation are 2 different things.

 

You dont model the Systems to a high fidelity then go back and dumb down the Nose Gear steering hydraulic systems because users that are used to flying the A-10C and FC3 SFM Jets complain that the system is hard to steer and broken.

 

How many people here have actually flown an F-86F?

 

 

 

-NWS Needs Hydraulic Pressure, So Engine RPM and Hyd. Pressure play a big role.

 

-When You press the NWS Button and Put the Right Pedal Back 50%, and release the NWS Button.

You Disengaged the Link, the Nose Wheel will remain in the position it was in when you released the NWS Button

 

-When Pressing the NWS Button again, the NWS System will not Link/Engage until you Return your Pedals to the Position it was in when you previously released the NWS Button.

 

So In Summary / For example

-You Roll down Tarmac, Press NWS Button, Turn the nose wheel to a certain ° by Pushing Right Pedal Forward 45-50%.

-You release the NWS Button, you can return the pedals to neutral

-The Nose Wheel will remain turned until you Press NWS Button Again and Align the Pedals to the Wheel by pushing the right Pedal to the same 45-50% you did before. once Linked, you can return the pedals to neutral and the nose wheel should track back to 0°.

 

The issue is that if you turn right 100%, release NWS, return pedals to Neutral, and then Press NWS, and press 100% pedals left, the nose gear tracks back left. When it shouldn't Move until you return the pedals to 100% right to align the pedals/gear.

Edited August 20, 2014 by SkateZilla

[drsgfire]

Does in your dreams count :)

[effte]

-NWS Needs Hydraulic Pressure, So Engine RPM and Hyd. Pressure play a big role.

 

-When You press the NWS Button and Put the Right Pedal Back 50%, and release the NWS Button.

You Disengaged the Link, the Nose Wheel will remain in the position it was in when you released the NWS Button

 

-When Pressing the NWS Button again, the NWS System will not Link/Engage until you Return your Pedals to the Position it was in when you previously released the NWS Button.

 

So In Summary / For example

-You Roll down Tarmac, Press NWS Button, Turn the nose wheel to a certain ° by Pushing Right Pedal Forward 45-50%.

-You release the NWS Button, you can return the pedals to neutral

-The Nose Wheel will remain turned until you Press NWS Button Again and Align the Pedals to the Wheel by pushing the right Pedal to the same 45-50% you did before. once Linked, you can return the pedals to neutral and the nose wheel should track back to 0°.

 

The issue is that if you turn right 100%, release NWS, return pedals to Neutral, and then Press NWS, and press 100% pedals left, the nose gear tracks back left. When it shouldn't Move until you return the pedals to 100% right to align the pedals/gear.

 

Most of the difficulty with the F-86 stems from the slow travel of the NWS, combined with the lack of feedback of the actual position of the steering. The devs seem to have good data suggesting a travel time of four seconds end to end for the NWS. It is painfully slow, but until someone can provide better data showing it to be incorrect, that's where it should remain.

 

In the real thing, you would always know where the nose wheel is as that's where you have your pedals, once you have engaged the clutch by lining them up with NWS activated. You couldn't move the pedals faster than the nose wheel turns. In the game, we can move our pedals freely from one end to the other in a fraction of a second, and then we are left guessing at where the nose wheel actually is by observing the environment-relative movement indicator above the glareshield.

 

These two effects lead to controllability issues, most notably the PIO characteristic for slow servos, but I have a hard time seeing how we could get around them given the limitations of our hardware. Force feedback pedals are probably a long way from reaching the consumer market.

 

However, the nose wheel would not, as you say, remain where it was when you disengaged NWS. With NWS disengaged, the NWS system acts as a shimmy damper. In other words, the nose wheel is free to pivot, with damping to restrict the movement. You could still steer by differential braking, as evidenced by the flight manual mentioning the situation where you have to use diff braking to get the nose wheel back into the controllable range in order to reengage the clutch and gain pedal control over the NWS.

 

Then there's the dreaded memory function, where the NWS remembers the last controlled position and actively returns there when you reengage the system. I e, steer right, disengage, straighten the nose wheel through differential braking, steer left, reengage - and it actively steers to the right before coming back left. That is Not Right - there's no memory in the hydraulics. I think we can assume it to be a close but no cigar version of an implementation of the "turn pedals to reengage NWS" feature. It is supposed to be on the bug list already.

 

Cheers,

/Fred

[SkateZilla]

Most of the difficulty with the F-86 stems from the slow travel of the NWS, combined with the lack of feedback of the actual position of the steering. The devs seem to have good data suggesting a travel time of four seconds end to end for the NWS. It is painfully slow, but until someone can provide better data showing it to be incorrect, that's where it should remain.

 

In the real thing, you would always know where the nose wheel is as that's where you have your pedals, once you have engaged the clutch by lining them up with NWS activated. You couldn't move the pedals faster than the nose wheel turns. In the game, we can move our pedals freely from one end to the other in a fraction of a second, and then we are left guessing at where the nose wheel actually is by observing the environment-relative movement indicator above the glareshield.

 

These two effects lead to controllability issues, most notably the PIO characteristic for slow servos, but I have a hard time seeing how we could get around them given the limitations of our hardware. Force feedback pedals are probably a long way from reaching the consumer market.

 

 

Then there's the dreaded memory function, where the NWS remembers the last controlled position and actively returns there when you reengage the system. I e, steer right, disengage, straighten the nose wheel through differential braking, steer left, reengage - and it actively steers to the right before coming back left. That is Not Right - there's no memory in the hydraulics. I think we can assume it to be a close but no cigar version of an implementation of the "turn pedals to reengage NWS" feature. It is supposed to be on the bug list already.

 

Cheers,

/Fred

 

Nicely written, sums it up nicely.

 

However, the nose wheel would not, as you say, remain where it was when you disengaged NWS. With NWS disengaged, the NWS system acts as a shimmy damper. In other words, the nose wheel is free to pivot, with damping to restrict the movement. You could still steer by differential braking, as evidenced by the flight manual mentioning the situation where you have to use diff braking to get the nose wheel back into the controllable range in order to reengage the clutch and gain pedal control over the NWS.

 

That's what I meant.