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How to Takeoff in the Dora


SimFreak

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My issue with the Dora and to a lesser extent, the P-51, is that they seem too unstable in yaw at low speeds. It is as if the FM is ignoring or downplaying airflow past the vertical stabilizer in the 100-200 KMH range. I have flown both enough to manage well enough, but it is still work.

 

I wish I had that actual experience to back up my intuition but I don't. I do have a bunch of tailwheel experience including a fair amount in light aerobatic types like my Pitts pictured in the avatar. My friends who have flown the P-51 tell me it's very docile. "Like a Citabria" is what I have heard more than once. The Citabria is famously easy to fly. So based on that limited background my poorly equipped intuition informs me that something is a little off. Another way to look at it is to consider how simple the cockpit is in the Dora. A great deal of time and expense was spent to make it so. Does anyone think that an airplane built for such brilliant simplicity for the hands young and inexperienced pilots, would then be such a challenge just to stay on the centerline?

 

BTW for what it's worth. I find it much easier to just hold the brakes, set power and release.


Edited by Smokin Hole
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My issue with the Dora and to a lesser extent, the P-51, is that they seem too unstable in yaw at low speeds. It is as if the FM is ignoring or downplaying airflow past the vertical stabilizer in the 100-200 KMH range. I have flown both enough to manage well enough, but it is still work.

 

I wish I had that actual experience to back up my intuition but I don't. I do have a bunch of tailwheel experience including a fair amount in light aerobatic types like my Pitts pictured in the avatar. My friends who have flown the P-51 tell me it's very docile. "Like a Citabria" is what I have heard more than once. The Citabria is famously easy to fly. So based on that limited background my poorly equipped intuition informs me that something is a little off. Another way to look at it is to consider how simple the cockpit is in the Dora. A great deal of time and expense was spent to make it so. Does anyone think that an airplane built for such brilliant simplicity for the hands young and inexperienced pilots, would then be such a challenge just to stay on the centerline?

 

BTW for what it's worth. I find it much easier to just hold the brakes, set power and release.

 

For the Mustang I can only point you to:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/posts/610190

"By March, I finally heard from Nick [Grey, Flying Legends] over Skype "That's a Mustang! Don't touch anything!" That was the end of the probably most important aircraft development process I've done. Development and tuning."

 

and

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=111388

"you will not get much closer, unless your in my airplane"

 

so I guess it's fairly close to the mark.

 

FW190D-9? How about this...

Unfortunately no specific words on ground handling/takeoff/landing.

klem

56 RAF 'Firebirds'

ASUS ROG Strix Z390-F mobo, i7 8086A @ 5.0 GHz with Corsair H115i watercooling, Gigabyte 2080Ti GAMING OC 11Gb GPU , 32Gb DDR4 RAM, 500Gb and 256Gb SSD SATA III 6Gb/s + 2TB , Pimax 8k Plus VR, TM Warthog Throttle, TM F18 Grip on Virpil WarBRD base, Windows 10 Home 64bit

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  • ED Team
My issue with the Dora and to a lesser extent, the P-51, is that they seem too unstable in yaw at low speeds. It is as if the FM is ignoring or downplaying airflow past the vertical stabilizer in the 100-200 KMH range. I have flown both enough to manage well enough, but it is still work.

 

I wish I had that actual experience to back up my intuition but I don't. I do have a bunch of tailwheel experience including a fair amount in light aerobatic types like my Pitts pictured in the avatar. My friends who have flown the P-51 tell me it's very docile. "Like a Citabria" is what I have heard more than once. The Citabria is famously easy to fly. So based on that limited background my poorly equipped intuition informs me that something is a little off. Another way to look at it is to consider how simple the cockpit is in the Dora. A great deal of time and expense was spent to make it so. Does anyone think that an airplane built for such brilliant simplicity for the hands young and inexperienced pilots, would then be such a challenge just to stay on the centerline?

 

BTW for what it's worth. I find it much easier to just hold the brakes, set power and release.

 

I guess the problem is not in the FM itself but in the feeling of side acceleration (ohhh... I have to write about it again and again :) ). Real pilots always complain that they do not feel accelerations flying in sims.

In contrary, virtual pilots usually train this "sixth feeling" and they can get accelerations from the visual information.

The guys who can do it perform takeoffs just along the straight line, in formation, etc without problems.

 

As for me I can TO Dora even with free swiveling tailwheel that I never performed for the Mustang. And for Dora - it's easier to TO applying full power from the start because of increased rudder authority just from the beginning of the TO roll. It's exactly the same Erich Brunotte told us.

By the way, he told that in 109 those who used to apply power gradually often were in trouble.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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^^same is true for the dora it seems...many friends of mine were first taking of with applying more and more power and had trouble.once i told them to immediately give full power on take off, most of them were doing way better...

 

btw,...109,...when? :)

same for me too.....i hold the brakes and full throttle till the nose starts to tip....then off the brakes....apply rudder as needed....and off ya go.....takeoff at minute 3:50 or so in video

  • Like 1

P-51, 190-D9, 109-K4, Spitfire MK IX, Normandy, and everything else:joystick:

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how I take off in this bird... well most of the time ;)

 

  • Like 1

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

There are two types of fighter pilots - those who have, and those who will execute a magnificent break turn towards a bug on the canopy . . . .

 

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  • ED Team
^^same is true for the dora it seems...many friends of mine were first taking of with applying more and more power and had trouble.once i told them to immediately give full power on take off, most of them were doing way better...

 

btw,...109,...when? :)

 

Soon after the first batch of Su-27 fixes.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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;2234135']how I take off in this bird... well most of the time ;)

 

 

......smoooooth, very nice.....:thumbup:

P-51, 190-D9, 109-K4, Spitfire MK IX, Normandy, and everything else:joystick:

i7 4770K, 4.3ghz, 32gb ram, Windows-10 Pro, Z87 Exstreme4, Corsair 850w psu, Samsung Evo 1T SSD & 250 SSD, Titan-X 12gb OC, Asus ROG Swift 27"/1440p/144hz/1ms monitor, Trackir 5, TM Warthog & 10cm extension, Saitek TPM, MFG crosswind pedals

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same for me too.....i hold the brakes and full throttle till the nose starts to tip....then off the brakes....apply rudder as needed....and off ya go.....takeoff at minute 3:50 or so in video

 

;2234135']how I take off in this bird... well most of the time ;)

 

 

Thanks guys, good info. What are the comparative distances for full throttle plus brakes, vs slow and smooth?

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I guess the problem is not in the FM itself but in the feeling of side acceleration (ohhh... I have to write about it again and again :) ). Real pilots always complain that they do not feel accelerations flying in sims.

In contrary, virtual pilots usually train this "sixth feeling" and they can get accelerations from the visual information.

The guys who can do it perform takeoffs just along the straight line, in formation, etc without problems.

 

As for me I can TO Dora even with free swiveling tailwheel that I never performed for the Mustang. And for Dora - it's easier to TO applying full power from the start because of increased rudder authority just from the beginning of the TO roll. It's exactly the same Erich Brunotte told us.

By the way, he told that in 109 those who used to apply power gradually often were in trouble.

 

You know YoYo, I came back here to delete my post hoping that it was unread. Because you and I had exactly this same forum conversation about the P-51. I even wrote an article mentioning our discussion over at SimHQ. Eventually I began to agree with you then and I think I might agree with you now. Funny how I had forgotten all that. It really might be a seat-of-the-pants thing that just can't be simulated. Fortunately, with time, that virtual pilot sixth sense kicks in and the whole thing becomes manageable.

 

I also agree that for whatever reason, it is much easier set power with the brakes applied and just let her rip. Doing so seems to prevent that sudden (pilot induced) lurch to the right at about 100 KPH.

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Thanks guys, good info. What are the comparative distances for full throttle plus brakes, vs slow and smooth?

 

cant tell exactly but i "think" u can get the dora up within 150m(felt) or so with full power and no bombs and 60%fuel

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

There are two types of fighter pilots - those who have, and those who will execute a magnificent break turn towards a bug on the canopy . . . .

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/schnarrsonvomdach

http://www.twitch.tv/schnarre

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Schnarre-Schnarrson/876084505743788?fref=ts

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Took off no probs with this latest update . love this aircraft model.

 

Edit .............just realized i had rudder assist enabled .........so decided to take the rudder assist off , ...oh yea ...its hard .........she swingers all over the runway ...going to give this some more practice . but love it . cant wait until edge and the WWII ..stuff.

 

Tried the full throttle method , with full brakes until nose tips , release , stick pulled in with slight right aileron applied , works . edit 04/12/14


Edited by con3para

HAF TOWER / MSI z77 G43 /-i5-3570k.@ 3.4mhz / GTX 780 / Patriot 8GB. DDR3 / TM-HOTAS-warthog 00228

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Which keys control the left and right brake?

 

Start DCSW

Select Options

Select Controls Tab

Select FW190

Read down list of controls/keys (clue: W is near the bottom)

Set keys if none already set

 

$5 please :)

klem

56 RAF 'Firebirds'

ASUS ROG Strix Z390-F mobo, i7 8086A @ 5.0 GHz with Corsair H115i watercooling, Gigabyte 2080Ti GAMING OC 11Gb GPU , 32Gb DDR4 RAM, 500Gb and 256Gb SSD SATA III 6Gb/s + 2TB , Pimax 8k Plus VR, TM Warthog Throttle, TM F18 Grip on Virpil WarBRD base, Windows 10 Home 64bit

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I need help!

I have tried many hours and follow all video advice but I still veer off to the

right and roll to the left and crash. It doesn't matter what I do or try with

regards to curves and settings. I still crash on take off, landing isn't any

problem.

 

I have absolutely no problem with the P51 for instance, no problem there what

so ever. I'm really puzzled over this.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

_____________Semper paratus, In hoc signo vinces________________

 

PC: Intel i7-8700K (4.9 GHz), Aorus Ultra Gaming Z370 MB, Gigabyte RTX 3080, 32 GB DDR3 (3,2 GHz), Samsung EVO 860 M.2 500 GB SSD + Samsung 960 M.2 250 GB SSD Gaming: Virpil T-50 CM2, TM WH Throttle, Crosswind pedals, HP Reverb

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I need help!

I have tried many hours and follow all video advice but I still veer off to the

right and roll to the left and crash. It doesn't matter what I do or try with

regards to curves and settings. I still crash on take off, landing isn't any

problem.

 

I have absolutely no problem with the P51 for instance, no problem there what

so ever. I'm really puzzled over this.

 

I expect you've tried all this but...

 

1. Line up carefully and let it roll straight a couple of yards/metres to straighten the tail-wheel.

 

2. Pull the stick back to lock tailwheel and apply a little right aleron (top of stick in middle of Rocket panel). Apply a LITTLE right rudder.

 

3. Hold on brakes and power up to 2700 rpm but release brakes if nose starts to pull down

 

4. Release brakes and keep straight with small inputs or brake taps. At 100kph gradually ease the stick forward to neutral and be ready to catch any swing with very small rudder or TAP of brakes

 

5. On lift off be ready to catch swings, rolls etc with SMALL control inputs.

 

It may squirl a bit - don't chase the squirls too hard, let it settle. Raise gear as soon as convenient - don't rush. Raise flaps above 300kph.

 

NOTE! Go to Options and the SPECIAL Tab. Select FW190 D-9, Unchack Auto Rudder and move takeoff assitance left to Zero.

 

Also if taking off in any crosswind don't use flaps. And make sure you're not carrying bombs.

 

That lot's probably not in the pilots notes but it works for me.

 

If the aileron/rudder offsets don't help try without.

 

EDIT: Check elevator trim is neutral first (should be). Don't 'pull' it off the deck, if it doesn't fly off itself, EASE it off and don't climb until at least 350kph.


Edited by klem

klem

56 RAF 'Firebirds'

ASUS ROG Strix Z390-F mobo, i7 8086A @ 5.0 GHz with Corsair H115i watercooling, Gigabyte 2080Ti GAMING OC 11Gb GPU , 32Gb DDR4 RAM, 500Gb and 256Gb SSD SATA III 6Gb/s + 2TB , Pimax 8k Plus VR, TM Warthog Throttle, TM F18 Grip on Virpil WarBRD base, Windows 10 Home 64bit

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I need help!

I have tried many hours and follow all video advice but I still veer off to the

right and roll to the left and crash. It doesn't matter what I do or try with

regards to curves and settings. I still crash on take off, landing isn't any

problem.

 

I have absolutely no problem with the P51 for instance, no problem there what

so ever. I'm really puzzled over this.

 

 

some ways to do it..but this is what works best for me..

 

- throttle full power

- watch what the plane is doing..and react with the rudders (watch and react)

keeping her straight on the Runway is not easy..it needs practice

- after 5-7 secs lock the Tail Wheel (Stick full back)..keep coompensating with the rudders (if you go off right you over do it..)

- at ca 150 km/h set the stick to neutral (gently)...and add a bit right aileron!

- let her take off herself (DO NOT PULL ON THE STICK like in a Jetfighter)

- after take off she needs loads of attention because she can be very nervous..

- after establishing a stable flight retract gears an flaps

 

again..this is not easy..it needs practice..:D


Edited by Lizzard

My Specs:

I don`t care..it is a Computer..a black one..

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I need help!

I have tried many hours and follow all video advice but I still veer off to the

right and roll to the left and crash. It doesn't matter what I do or try with

regards to curves and settings. I still crash on take off, landing isn't any

problem.

 

I have absolutely no problem with the P51 for instance, no problem there what

so ever. I'm really puzzled over this.

 

If you can't takeoff using the full blast method try a more moderate acceleration where you take the acceleration up in small steps. You really only need to get her up to about 27-3000 rpm to easily takeoff on these airfields. Apply right rudder before you even start and make mild but quick adjustments with your rudder pedals. Slowly drop the tail about 150kph so its easier to control.

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Thank you for the assistance :)

I will try these combos, it's actually a gradually increasing throttle

and rolling take off that I try to perform. Haven't tried brakes and

advancing the throttle standing still after initial line up.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

_____________Semper paratus, In hoc signo vinces________________

 

PC: Intel i7-8700K (4.9 GHz), Aorus Ultra Gaming Z370 MB, Gigabyte RTX 3080, 32 GB DDR3 (3,2 GHz), Samsung EVO 860 M.2 500 GB SSD + Samsung 960 M.2 250 GB SSD Gaming: Virpil T-50 CM2, TM WH Throttle, Crosswind pedals, HP Reverb

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  • 3 weeks later...
I need help!

I have tried many hours and follow all video advice but I still veer off to the

right and roll to the left and crash. It doesn't matter what I do or try with

regards to curves and settings. I still crash on take off, landing isn't any

problem.

 

I have absolutely no problem with the P51 for instance, no problem there what

so ever. I'm really puzzled over this.

 

 

Simple procedure:

 

Line up on the runway and roll forward to straighten the tailwheel.

 

Stick in your gut to lock the tailwheel and to the right. Right rudder.

 

Full power and steer with rudder.

 

Relax back pressure and let her lift off careful not to allow the nose to get too high.

 

Clean it up and open the cowl flaps to cool it down.

 

Simple. With tailwheel locked, easy to keep heading fixed and you could keep stick back until liftoff at which point push it forward to prevent stall of left wing.

 

More advanced technique is to push nose down onto mains and bring tailwheel up once airspeed is alive. Counter gyroscopic effect with rudder and pull it off when ready to fly.

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take off 1.2.1.4

 

Has there been any changes to the WWII birds , Taking off again has got hard. with out take off assist on , rudder auto . i find it near impossible to take off , any one else having difficulties .


Edited by con3para

HAF TOWER / MSI z77 G43 /-i5-3570k.@ 3.4mhz / GTX 780 / Patriot 8GB. DDR3 / TM-HOTAS-warthog 00228

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Hi Con,

 

I found the following extract in How to Land the FW190.

I thought it was a good explanation of what is happening during the take-off sequence and what actions you need to take. I went from utterly hopeless on take-off to regularly achieving a good take-off after a couple of hours practice with these ideas in mind.

 

Mangaroca post 29

Here are the things that helped me to ask Dora out and take her for a ride:

 

1. Absolutely most crucial thing and my most common error was centring the stick too soon. When the tail wheel unlocks your already applied rudder input yaws the plane to the right and you start skidding (and skidding at these speeds is drift extravaganza!). Those that haven't figured it out yet or read it elsewhere: do not centre the stick until you reach ~150km/h. At this speed you can centre it literary in a second and nothing bad should happen. Your tail will get airborne which will only add to your yaw ability and even less rudder will be required to keep you on the runway.

 

2. Second most important thing is not to do the opposite and hold the stick back for too long. If the elevator is nailing your tail to the ground but the speed creates enough lift under the main wings the first thing that will happen to you after you lift off will be a stall.

 

3. Be prepared to counter the prop gyro effect and apply a slight roll to the right the moment your wheels leave the ground.

 

I am no expert at this but following these rules allowed me to perform 10+ consecutive successful take offs. It's a nice change to look at the crash craters from my earlier attempts from above.

 

Two more things you might find helpful but not related to how you control the aircraft during take off:

 

1. Enable the Take-Off Assistance for the Dora and observe what kind of movement and to what extend the "AI rudder" is performing during you normal take off. It will help you realize what type of movement you need to reproduce to get in the air with no assistance.

 

2. Watch your Artificial Horizon the moment you apply thrust and try to neutralize the Turn indicator's movement with the rudder as you gain speed. The thing we don't feel flying our virtual aircraft on PCs is the g-forces the pilot would sense with his whole body. He could counter any initial side to side motion because he would feel it. We need a visual representation of that to act.

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After reading most of posts here, I would like to thank you for explaining how to take off and land. I would also like to add my tips for take off. Landing is a bit tricky for me as I don't have toe brake and I can't help her to skid at the end of the run. So here it goes.

For take off, I first make sure that I have lined up with runway with tail lock by slowly running the runway for a while. At this speed, I can play with the left and right brake to line up with the runway and get the feeling whether I have a proper tail lock. I then increase my throttle slowly and push my joystick to the center in synchronization with throttle and then as others said, my plane is on air by itself. A minute and constant adjustment with rudder after 100 km always helps as well. With this method, I have been successful about 95% of times. I hope that this helps someone as I got help from many of you.

Best,

DrJet

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