How to Land the Dora

[atsmith6]

I struggled like crazy trying to land this aircraft until I realised that it was simply the torque of the engine killing me every time. Suddenly, landing became trivially easy. To save anyone else the frustration I've made a quick youtube video. Read the description for steps taken in flight:

 

 

Hope that helps!

Edited September 1, 2014 by atsmith6

[Godpeed]

Hi Godpeed, I refer to your youtube video “DCS FW190 deadstick.1st landing”

If this was your first Dora flight with first landing attempt even after engine died and prop stopped spinning . . .

Why then complain about "struggling with landing"? Was it skills or one time luck?

A “lively” dead stick landing as shown in your video can’t be luck, it couldn’t have been done better

(except a little dancing at the end of landing roll)

If you can perform a dead stick landing as such what is difficult about a normal landing with full power control?

 

Meanwhile I was also able to provoke an engine seize with prop spinning stop.

It’s not that easy, the Jumo 213-A1 was sturdy built and is not as critical heat sensitive as e.g. the DCS P-51D.

It took me more than 20 minutes flight with max. power (throttle to “START”, 3.250 rpm) and MW-50 boost switch “EIN”

until Dora's engine died and the prop stopped spinning. I was lucky to perform a dead stick emergency landing

without damage from 6.000 ft above the near field.

 

I dont really struggle with landing ,its just getting them perfected.That dead stick landing was part luck(first flight) part skill as I have always loved dead stck landings.

It took me around 10min to fry that engine ,I think it died fast because of the amount of climbing I was doing,I haven not cooked one since.

[jermin]

That said I noticed that you also have the offset rudder pedals in controls indicator.Lets see if this gets fixed and I "hope" it can cure some issues.One "might" be that since you are landing and the rudder pedal is pushing to the right the right wing is not moving as fast and so this could be the cause of the wing drop.I am throwing shit out there so take this with the knowledge that I have no idea what I am talking about.:megalol:

 

You are right. The rudder is offset to the right, although my rudder pedals have been properly calibrated. Here are 2 pictures to demonstrate this bug:

[wernst]

It’s not a bug - it’s the learning curve

 

wolfstriked said: “It’s not a bug its more that the FM is a bitch to handle.”

He is right. Yes, the Dora has a quite challenging FM - quite similar to the true flight characteristic of the real thing.

But, what do you want? Easy flying? O.k., switch to GAME. It will cure all your issues you are complaining about here.

 

e.g. rudder off center: With my own 1947 built taildragger I experienced this kind of rudder displacement quite often.

The rudder control cables are quite long. They are aging, getting longer, getting flimsy, due to temp and other influences.

Unfortunately the elongation appears not always equally on both sides. As result, the rudder behaves not always as being centered and tightly stretched.

The ground crew may correct this displacement from case to case by bending the fixed trim tabs on the rudder.

But also these trim tab settings may change from flight to flight in an unwanted way.

These are true imperfections which you'll face in reality - why do you want the FM being smooth and perfect here?

 

If you feel the Dora needs more right rudder than left (sure it does), just apply more right rudder.

After a couple of flights you’ll learn to handle this deviation. It’s like shooting with one specific rifle.

After some shots, which missed the center of the round target, you’ll get a feeling for the amount

of pointing at off center in order to hit center. It’s a learning curve.

 

When I started to fly the Dora I realized, that it is the most challenging sim plane I ever have flown.

Now, after some weeks of flying, I gain more and more safe control in take-offs and landings, I achieve

an increasing number of successes. Learning curve! That's fun.

Recently I have shown a stable spot landing on the threshold with landing roll below 500 m. Great.

I was happy. My second success was a safe power off landing from 4.000 m above field. Even more happy.

Would it be possible to get this feeling of success with an autopilot landing?

 

In any combat mission you'll face events which require your specific reaction, immediately.

There is no predictable scenario. Take-offs and landings are part of this unpredictable scenario.

 

THAT IS the true fun of the sim!

 

Biologist’s say: Even an octopus can learn. Yes, it’s all about learning curve, not bugs.

 

W.E.

(Germany - which explains the clumsy English)

Edited September 3, 2014 by wernst

[Yo-Yo]

You are right. The rudder is offset to the right, although my rudder pedals have been properly calibrated. Here are 2 pictures to demonstrate this bug:

It's not a bug! It's only a FIXED TRIM TAB set to have rudder input at cruise speed. As you are power-off standing on the ground you will see the rudder centered. If you add power and/or gaining speed you will see the rudder going to its trim position.

[Yo-Yo]

Honestly, I think this is a bug. I need to deflect the stick to the right in order to counter the tendency to roll left. I'm unable to make the stick center upon touchdown.

 

Since two ailerons deflects at the same angle. Moving ailerons when running down the runway should not make big difference to the speed of the left and right wing, if at all.

 

Also, doing differential braking using buttons is way too difficult. Please allow us to use (left and right) rudder twist as left and right wheel brake axis.

 

No, it's not correct. At high AoA the plane rolls ailerons produce noticable adverse yaw effect because the lowered aileron creates more induced drag and the opposit aileron reduces this drag.

[jermin]

OK. That's the answer I was expecting. But how do you explain the sluggish rudder response after touchdowns?

[IonicRipper]

After touchdown, there isn't enough airspeed around the rudder for it to have authority.

[jermin]

Are you sure about that? How come the rudders are reasonably responsive when I perform a takeoff roll?

[NineLine]

Are you sure about that? How come the rudders are reasonably responsive when I perform a takeoff roll?

 

Where is your throttle compared to landing? Its probably more so the lack of prop wash...

[jermin]

Where is your throttle compared to landing? Its probably more so the lack of prop wash...

 

If that's true, I'm wondering what are used to steer gliders after they touch down.

[NineLine]

I dunno... do they steer? I would imagine with a glider you dont want to have to do a lot of steering or risking dipping a wing into the ground...

[Yo-Yo]

If that's true, I'm wondering what are used to steer gliders after they touch down.

 

Just compare glider fin area to its weight and MOI. The destabilising moment from the main wheel is proportional to the weight, by the way.

 

And I do not think you have to steer in Dora. If your landing is properly done, you have tailwheel locked and then apply brakes. That's all for safe landing.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Yo-Yo

[wernst]

If that's true, I'm wondering what are used to steer gliders after they touch down.

 

landing speed of gliders at touch down with full speed brakes applied is less than 60 km/h.

Landing roll on grass fields (no headwind) will usually take then less than 50 m.

Rudder helps a bit to get clear from the runway, even one does not steer at all nothing serious will happen.

 

W.E. (PPL-A,-C pilot)

Edited September 2, 2014 by wernst

[wernst]

If your landing is properly done, you have tailwheel locked and then apply brakes. That's all to safe landing.

 

yes, but make sure to apply BOTH wheel brakes after touch down equally. If landing roll speed

has decreased try to stay on the runway by tapping on the appropiate single brake.

[jermin]

The destabilising moment from the main wheel is proportional to the weight, by the way.

 

Speaking of weight, the Mustang has a larger weight than the Dora. However, its rudders are much more responsive.

 

And I do not think you have to steer in Dora. If your landing is properly done, you have tailwheel locked and then apply brakes. That's all for safe landing.

 

And even if you do a perfect three-point landing, you'll still need to steer the plane using rudders, due to the engine torque and small bumps on the runway. Brakes are too difficulty and dangerous to be used at speed above 100 km/h.

[SuperSix2]

You should only be using rudders in order to maintain directional control. You should also have 0 engine torque considering it's at idle or around 1000 rpms. You only get torque when you have high RPM and low speed.

[wernst]

And even if you do a perfect three-point landing, you'll still need to steer the plane using rudders, due to the engine torque and small bumps on the runway. Brakes are too difficulty and dangerous to be used at speed above 100 km/h.

 

Assuming that you have aligned your approach and landing touch down excactly to the runway heading

and you have performed a perfect three-point landing - then

- above 100 km/h: apply BOTH wheel brakes equally, fully - forget any rudder control

- below 100 km/h: use single wheelbrakes carefully to steer and keep the Dora on the runway

 

That's all.

[Yo-Yo]

Speaking of weight, the Mustang has a larger weight than the Dora. However, its rudders are much more responsive.

 

 

 

And even if you do a perfect three-point landing, you'll still need to steer the plane using rudders, due to the engine torque and small bumps on the runway. Brakes are too difficulty and dangerous to be used at speed above 100 km/h.

 

Do you forget Mustang's steered wheel?

[wolfstriked]

Do you forget Mustang's steered wheel?

 

Ahhhhh,that is why it feels great on TO and landings.:book:

[Godpeed]

wolfstriked said: “It’s not a bug its more that the FM is a bitch to handle.”

He is right. Yes, the Dora has a quite challenging FM - quite similar to the true flight characteristic of the real thing.

But, what do you want? Easy flying? O.k., switch to GAME. It will cure all your issues you are complaining about here.

 

e.g. rudder off center: With my own 1947 built taildragger I experienced this kind of rudder displacement quite often.

The rudder control cables are quite long. They are aging, getting longer, getting flimsy, due to temp and other influences.

Unfortunately the elongation appears not always equally on both sides. As result, the rudder behaves not always as being centered and tightly stretched.

The ground crew may correct this displacement from case to case by bending the fixed trim tabs on the rudder.

But also these trim tab settings may change from flight to flight in an unwanted way.

These are true imperfections which you'll face in reality - why do you want the FM being smooth and perfect here?

 

If you feel the Dora needs more right rudder than left (sure it does), just apply more right rudder.

After a couple of flight you’ll learn to handle this deviation. It’s like shooting with one specific rifle.

After some shots, which missed the center of the round target, you’ll get a feeling for the amount

of pointing at off center in order to hit center. It’s a learning curve.

 

When I started to fly the Dora I realized, that it is the most challenging sim plane I ever have flown.

Now, after some weeks of flying, I gain more and more safe control in take-offs and landings, I achieve

an increasing number of successes. Learning curve! That's fun.

Recently I have shown a stable spot landing on the threshold with landing roll below 500 m. Great.

I was happy. My second success was a safe power off landing from 4.000 m above field. Even more happy.

Would it be possible to get this feeling of success with an autopilot landing?

 

In any combat mission you'll face events which require your specific reaction, immediately.

There is no predictable scenario. Take-offs and landing are part of this unpredictable scenario.

 

THAT IS the true fun of the game!

 

Biologist’s say: Even an octopus can learn.

It’s all about learning curve, not bugs.

 

W.E.

(Germany - which explains the clumsy English)

 

This is so true. exactly how I feel.

If it was that easy, I would not fly it.

[IonicRipper]

For me, the Dora really isn't that hard to land, the challenge for me really is taking off.

If your approach is good and you don't try to land with too much airspeed, its really not that hard to control.

 

... Except for crosswind landings. Those are a b*tch.

[Godpeed]

For me, the Dora really isn't that hard to land, the challenge for me really is taking off.

If your approach is good and you don't try to land with too much airspeed, its really not that hard to control.

 

... Except for crosswind landings. Those are a b*tch.

 

Funny thing is ,I have no trouble taking off.I really enjoy taking off and I love the the part just before I leave the ground when I give it right rudder and right aileron to compensate for the drop on the left wing,unless you do a fast flat take off and it takes off like an A10.

My tips for take off.

1-Line up perfect on center line,set trim to the middle position ,flaps in take off.

2-Hold wheel brakes and throttle up to 2500rpm.

3-release wheel brake and as soon as you are rolling straight and true,pull the stick back to lock wheel.

4-gradually increase throttle and compensate with a little right wheel brake.

5-slam the throttle to maximum -release steering lock and switch to left rudder,then back to right rudder for lift off and a little right aileron depending on take off speed.

 

Well all that seems complex but that's how I do it and as I have said before ,everyone will have there own way of taking off in the dora.

Landing for me is not a problem but I can not do them perfect every time and I mostly do combat type landings.

My biggest problem is I flair to high and get a bounce or 3,Just need more practice ;)

[wernst]

. . . I love the the part just before I leave the ground when I give it right rudder and right aileron

 

 

Yes, Godpeed, right rudder AND right aileron, that’s what I practice as well successfully, in sim and in reality.

 

theory: At high power and low airspeed (as take-off run) the prop wash effect causing the plane to yaw to the left.

The pilot compensates this force through right rudder control.

 

O.k. that’s what we are all doing, more or less. But there is another effect in take-off runs.

 

The effect of propeller torque is an influence about the roll axis.

It’s not countered by moving the rudder but by lowering the appropriate wing via aileron control.

For planes with props which rotating clockwise the pilot has to apply some right aileron (right wing a little down)

in order to counter the aircraft roll left tendency.

 

practice: At about 170 - 180 km/h I don’t center the stick to the precise middle position but a little to the middle-right.

With the right wing a little down the Dora stays better on the runway than applying too much right rudder only.

Even with crosswinds, regardless from right or left, I apply a well dosed amount of right rudder and right aileron.

 

The learning curve from multiple exercises will give you a feeling for the optimum amount of combined right rudder and right aileron.

Edited September 10, 2014 by wernst

[Der_Fred]

It’s not countered by moving the rudder but by lowering the appropriate wing via aileron control.

That could be dangerous at low speeds, and could cause a left wing stall. Best is to apply more rudder to counteract the torque effect, until enough speed is built up. :-)