How to Land the Dora

[Buzpilot]

Thanks for the input. I guess I mostly need to work on rudder control once I'm down, easier said than done though :P

 

I personally also have toebrakes with deadzones, and a little negative curve, to make sure it's not disturbing the balance, and also easier to use for adjusting.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2014 by Buzpilot

[Der_Fred]

I don't have the Dora, but in the DCS P51, and other previous sims, I'd always aim for the numbers at approx 20-30 kts above stall.. Just prior to the numbers/apron, level out and gently cut throttle (which is way down at this time).. and correct the sink with a bit of elevator.. By the time you touch down, you're just on stall or slightly above.. for a perfect touchdown. A bit of practise to get the leveling off height right.. but you'll learn quick.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Tip: Keeping your flaps retracted will make landing and takeoff easier in the P-51 and FW-190 (at the obvious expense of rolling distance).

 

TO without flaps - YES. Always use full flaps when landing with P-51, same goes for Dora.

 

 

I believe sooner or latter someone will correct the propwash bug introduced with the fw 190 release.

 

This makes takeoff with wind unrealistically difficult.

 

Take the Batumi takeoff situation. Using the Fw190 it is even more evident, but the same applies to the p51d.

 

Set wind from your left ( port ) side at, say 10 or 11 m/s. Apply takeoff power and, in a real prop aircraft, talidragger or not you would expect to use right rudder to counter the tendency of the aircraft to weathercock, and even aileron into the wind.... Forget it - as it is now modelled in DCS you will have to use full left rudder ( into the wind! ) and even right stick, and even so you will in the fw190 probably find yourself leaving the rw downwindside :-/

 

If you repeat the test with wind from your right ( starboard ), the opposite will apply, with you finding that sometimes even full right rudder will not be sufficient...

 

This need to use rudder into the wind and opposite aileron is counter-intuitive, and makes takeoffs, landings and even taxiing feel strange when x-wind is present.

 

Of course if you test with the jets, a10c, su25t, ..., they'll behave correctly, there being no deflected propwash effects.

 

 

Just tested that for myself. Hope it gets fixed. IRL the procedure is stick back and into the wind, with rudder downwind until speed builds up for all control surfaces.

[Maverick-X]

Never had a problem landing the Dora, it's actually a lot easier than the Mustang.

 

Either you are doing something wrong in the mustang, or I in the Dora. From my point of view landing (and takeoff) are super easy in the Mustang, and... challenging is a bit much... lets say you have to be concentrated to land the dora ^^

[effte]

Set wind from your left ( port ) side at, say 10 or 11 m/s. Apply takeoff power and, in a real prop aircraft, talidragger or not you would expect to use right rudder to counter the tendency of the aircraft to weathercock, and even aileron into the wind.... Forget it - as it is now modelled in DCS you will have to use full left rudder ( into the wind! ) and even right stick, and even so you will in the fw190 probably find yourself leaving the rw downwindside :-/

 

I just wish to second this, now that I have the Dora (thanks to jcomm :thumbup:). As an aero engineer and RL taildragger pilot - nope, this (and the excuse given) does not make sense.

 

Cheers,

/Fred

[Curly]

Maybe the wind isn't applying greater force to the tail of the aircraft, and instead provides only a singular moment to body the of the aircraft. So that the weathervaning behavior is not exhibited. That or, the wind over comes the lateral static friction of the wheels, and you're basically skidding, down the runway .

 

I also think alot of people's troubles with landing the Dora has to do with the approach setup Wags uses in the landing video. He advises using an approach speed of 220 and VVI of 2.5 to 5. That's a glideslope of 4 to 8 degrees. Both are on the steep side for an approach.

 

For a 3 degree glide slope at 220kph, you'd want a VVI of 1.8 (call it 2). This should make the flare and touchdown a bit easier to manage. You'll have to spend less time hovering over the runway at 200kph, or flaring out. Plus it should be easier to see your touch down area with a shallower approach.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Curly

[VincentLaw]

TO without flaps - YES. Always use full flaps when landing with P-51, same goes for Dora.

"Always"

 

There is no reason to land with full flaps when you have a giant, paved, modern runway. It will just make it easier to crash. On the Normandy map it might make sense to land with flaps more often.

 

Maybe it is more "correct" by the book to land with full flaps, but from personal experience in the sim, I have an easier time landing the dora and pony without flaps, so I recommend that to anyone who is having difficulty with landings.

Edited October 19, 2014 by VincentLaw

[[DBS]TH0R]

"Always"

 

There is no reason to land with full flaps when you have a giant, paved, modern runway. It will just make it easier to crash. On the Normandy map it might make sense to land with flaps more often.

 

Maybe it is more "correct" by the book to land with full flaps, but from personal experience in the sim, I have an easier time landing the dora and pony without flaps, so I recommend that to anyone who is having difficulty with landings.

 

Not that you can not land with less than fully down, it is how it is done in RL P-51 and why you can see every P-51 on all YT videos landing with flaps fully down.

 

Your absolutely right. I looked at the original Mustang Pilot Operating Handbook as well as a 1944 Pilot notes handbook....even the F-51D handbook recommends full flaps on normal landings. This technique seems to lower the noise and wings into the airflow and keep the Mustang down.

 

Only remark I saw about using less than full flaps would be crosswind landing with higher speed.

 

Landing without flaps or without power for that matter will get you a better understanding on the physics, that part I agree with.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Maybe the wind isn't applying greater force to the tail of the aircraft, and instead provides only a singular moment to body the of the aircraft. So that the weathervaning behavior is not exhibited. That or, the wind over comes the lateral static friction of the wheels, and you're basically skidding, down the runway .

 

But that would never justify a veer. The nose veers ( right yaw ) in my example with winds from the left.

 

Also, the reason is actually the simulation of the effect of the deflected propwash/slipstream over the downwind lift generation surfaces of the aircraft.

 

This makes sense, to some degree, but IMO is way overdone.

[26-J39]

I can get on the ground, but after that the slow fishtailing begins.

 

Once your on the ground hold the stick back to lock your tail wheel. You will still have plenty rudder authority to keep you straight.. Helps alot ;)

[effte]

Not that you can not land with less than fully down, it is how it is done in RL P-51 and why you can see every P-51 on all YT videos landing with flaps fully down.

 

"Use about half flaps for any appreciable crosswind."

 

Gusty landings: "Use about half flaps."

 

Basic airmanship: Use all control surfaces available to achieve the required and desired results.

[Slap_Chop]

After numerous attempts at landing the Dora I think I may have discovered

the reason for Germany's loss of WWII. It's no coincidence that of the

20,000 190's built during that period only a few survived war. It's obviously

because very few survived their first landing. :)

 

ALL KIDDING ASIDE :)

 

I think a few factors are contributing to the success or failure of some

individuals to land this bird.

 

I myself do not own rudder pedals :cry:. If there was one DCS bird that I

could use rudder pedals for with toe brakes this would be it.

 

Pulling the stick back to lock the tail wheel ultimately leads to non

intended rudder input with my twist stick. Also I am lacking a head tracker

so looking over the nose for those without one is not easily done or an

obvious option for people without Track IR or equivalent. I did map a cockpit

camera up button to my joystick as a kind of pseudo solution.

 

I seemed to have the most success landing when flaring just before stall and

cutting throttle all together on touchdown. If I had any power on

touchdown pulling back on the stick to lock the tail wheel caused me to lift

off again. This is necessary because of my lack of pedals(IE: Toe Brakes).

 

So My guess is the discrepancies in successful Dora landings in this thread is

due to a wide variety of flight sim equipment or lack of flight sim equipment

of the virtual pilots.

 

On the other side of the coin I love the Dora in-flight and I generally don't

have any trouble taking off either.

 

Now for your viewing pleasure Some Real Life FW190 landings. It doesn't

appear these RL pilots have any easier time of it except that the Dora

doesn't seem to bounce as high on initial contact. Enjoy.

 

 

 

 

 

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

These videos show something that pretty much illustrates how well ground handling during taxi and maneuvering appears to be modeled in DCS's Dora. Slight rudder inputs, rudder authority being there at even low power settings, something I definitely miss from DCS's Dora.

 

The p51d is even easier to taxi and maneuver on ground.

[gavagai]

Now for your viewing pleasure Some Real Life FW190 landings. It doesn't

appear these RL pilots have any easier time of it except that the Dora

doesn't seem to bounce as high on initial contact. Enjoy.

:bounce:

I was nervous just watching them!

[Alladyn]

It is extremely difficult to land the FW 190, and I believe it is actually more difficult in DCS than the actual plane.

 

I've watched the landing video and I stay in the 190 range with descent between 2 and 5, but it still will not sit down on the runway after a lot of attempts. It is almost to the point of unplayable.

 

I understand that you need to make it difficult, but I think it has gone beyond the extreme.

 

Its Obvious provocation from other company or You are the best Troll lately';...;'

Its not arcade console game with mouse-driver... You have to learn! It will take time! But it isn’t Hard!

If something you don't know, nor understand = Hard

 

 

 

It took me about 6h, for couple days to master landing, everything I did, land, reuse mission, land and so on. Now it's easy man. You will learn how to do it! Good Luck! Easy

[Buzzles]

The p51d is even easier to taxi and maneuver on ground.

Apples and oranges as the P51D has a steerable tailwheel :)

[EddieJames]

Great work Diveplane. How do you add those to DCS? I've never put in new audio.

 

Edit: nevermind, I got it all set up - thx!

Edited October 20, 2014 by EddieJames

[Slap_Chop]

UPDATE: IMPORTANT DISCOVERY RE LANDING DORA

If you are having trouble landing the Dora. Just Land on the grass beside the airstrip. :thumbup:

 

It's a completely different aircraft on the grass. Track attached. FW190 Lands Great On Grass.trk

 

PS: Diveplane I'll be checking those new sounds out :)

[Rabbit_]

Honestly...Dora isn't difficult to land. I crashed it for the first time and everything fine since then. You just have to be stable and level, when touching down. That's all. I know it sounds macho, but it's the reality. I really can't wait, what threads will be created, when BF-109 will come out. Dora is a sweetheart, Messerschmitt is a bitch. And I'm really looking forward the moment, when people will give their first tries on carrier landings. :-D

I understand, that everyone has to learn it. But I DON'T understand, why there is always something like "you made this too difficult" or "there must be some bug" or something like these stupid comments towards the developers.

[Boris]

I think for people coming from jet aircraft it is a big readjustment to fly a tail dragger. The AOA on landing is much higher in the warbirds!

 

When first attempting to land the Dora (I learned it before the Mustang) I tried to set her down on the main landing gear, keeping the tail wheel up in the air.

If you come down like this, you are certain to be coming down way too hard.

You have to get over not being able to look over the nose on landing, it's not going to happen. As long as you attempt a three point landing, it's going to work out. Keep the rate of descent as low a possible and the speed a tad higher just to be safe.

 

After all this, I don't think it's difficult at all. Like riding a bike...

 

 

That said, I don't really think that the Mustang or the Dora is particularly more difficult than the other.

 

The main thing that screwed up my takeoffs at the start was forgetting to lock the tail wheel. Once that is done, just apply the right amount of rudder correction and you're set.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

the Dora is not difficult to land or takeoff, and even less to taxi - if one observes ( i know this is not a great source of info, but anyway... ) youtubes of taxiing fw190s it is evident that the Dora handling in dcs comes very close to the real thing. i would really like to have this correct modeling on my other sim...

 

only problem so far has to do with situations where a cross-wind component is present, and sometimes at the mp servers, users are surprised to find it very difficult to takeoff, and even keep crashing, when they have already "mastered" their takeoff and landing techniques flying without xwind, or with xwind but before this "bug" was introduced, i believe around the time the fw190 was released because at least i only started noticing it after the game version supporting this model was made available.

 

it was actually due to a few mp sessions that this "bug" became apparent to me. on a certain session, not being aware that the server had a 10m/s xwind set on it's weather, i kept crashing on takeoff, which surprised me because i had never crashed before ( my first experience taking off with a simulated fw190 was on il2 bos, so, i was already familiar with the characteristics, actually very predictable, of the aircraft on takeoff and ldg... and i was using the p51d and the Dora for quite a long time at other MP servers or offline without any problems... )

 

the problem is related to the fact that when xwind components of significant intensity are present there is a wrong tendency of the aircraft to turn it's nose downwind as well as it's downwind wing to try to rise.

 

this calls for unrealistic use of rudder and aileron inputs - "rudder towards the wind" and "aileron away from the wind" - which a simmer with knowledge of how to control an aircraft, simulated or real, under xwind will fail to perform.

 

out of xwind situations, the Dora is a charm to handle on the ground, while taxiing, on takeoff run, and on landing too, although there might be some adjustments needed for even better accuracy.

Edited October 20, 2014 by jcomm

[otto]

I've had a lot of trouble at first because i was used to take of using landing flaps like in il2 1946.

Now it's not difficult at all .

Landing was always a pleasure.

 

Someone change the title !

[Luzifer]

From my RL flying taildraggers experience i think landing in DCS ( P-51 and D-9) are quite realistic and natural to me.

 

I rather think that something is not correct with take offs - both in P-51 and D-9. Planes behave during take off runing not natural for me, make crazy things expecially with a little flaps ( take off flaps). Of course never fly as such high power taildragger but i think BOS simulated ground handling and take offs much better and realistic to me. DCS is too " mechanic" ( or robotic) to me hard to explain but i feel it not natural.

 

Are you sure you have the take-off assist option or whatsitcalled off? It's enabled by default and it means well, but... Just check that these options are off for both the P-51 and D-9.

[Kwiatek]

Surly i got it off. I play P-51 since relase so i know these game and realism settings.

[CoBlue]

The ground handling in DCS PFM is way to sensitive especially the suspension part, way way over done! That's why landings are more difficult then they need & should be.

In my whole IRL flying, I've never experienced what DCS replicates in that regard.