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How to Land the Dora


wolle

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Airspeed indicator, Wrong speed?

 

Have been trying to land this monster for a while now, and cant do it, bouncing up every time.

Noticed that replay shows another speed then Airspeed indicator in plane, differs about 20 kmh!

In plane its 220 kmh and replay shows about 200 kmh! So I stall the damn thing every time.

When I think I am at 200 kmh, I have to pull back so much that I bounce my tailwheel before main gear... Its falling like a dead duck on runway and I cant do shite to level out for a nice 3 point landing...

Am I totally wrong about the difference between indicator and reply speed, or do any body else having same difference?

:helpsmilie::cry:

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Lange_666, please post 2-3 tracks of your takeoff attempts, I would like to study them.

Not yet... too embarrasing... still to proud at the moment...:joystick:

 

After i got home today, fired it up again and had 3 successive take-offs in a row but form then it all went bad again. Had about 3 in the next 20 attempts or so. On my second run of the day which i just finished, it was even worse...LOL.

 

Played around a bit with the curves and the saturation but setting the saturation on the brakes was not a good idea so i removed that again but left a little bit on the rudder and added a bit of curve (from 20 to 30% now). Not much of an improvement for now.

 

I'm getting a pretty idea on what happens when it goes wrong, why i start drifting or why the airplane yaws or responds to the rudder while the speed increases but the moment of applying the correct inputs on the right moment still has to sink in.

 

On all other aircraft i have some sort of "feeling" on how it responds without actually feeling it moving (sitting in front of a screen). On this one... zip.

 

I compare it a bit to the natural head moving setting in like the A-10C, if this is set to on, i simply can't fly because i don't feel what i see on screen. Same here... i see the respons of the aircraft but the movement to my input is not always what i think it should be and then it goes wrong. As long i can't make that connection it will still keep getting wrong.

 

PS: Although i loved flying the Ka-50 and could manage it pretty well, i never managed to fly heli's in FSX for the same reason. It just lacked some sort of feeling, compared to like the Cesna (which flew like a glove). Gave up pretty quick on those but i stick to the Dora until take-off and landing are smooth...

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I think I have the take off sorted now. It is a matter of making very early corrections to yaw, and easing the stick forwards so the tail lifts before the wings start to bite too much and cause a stall.

 

Now, on to landings - still have a very low success rate, but I think I have the idea now.

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Now, on to landings - still have a very low success rate, but I think I have the idea now.

 

What works for me is:

 

1. Throttle back until 400kmh

2. Lower a little flap and then some more as speed bleeds off until full flap and gear down at 300kmh. Trim up maximum.

3. Line up with the runway and come in with enough altitude and angle so that I can see the runway clearly for most of the way in. Going about a constant 250kmh at this point

5. Descend towards the runway threshold, lowering the throttle to keep speed at 250kmh

5. Lower the throttle some more as near the runway threshold - it might out of sight by this point but keep your frame of reference and it should appear in the side windows pretty quickly. Will be pulling back on the stick a bit all through this point as trim won't stop your descent enough

6. Should be going about 220kmh now as over the runway threshold and chop the throttle adjusting with rudders some more to keep straight

7. Just glide then over the runway while keeping the stick back a reasonable amount - you'll then gently flare and lose speed before touching down with all three points at 190-200kmh. This can take a short while to happen which isn't a problem - the runways are plenty long

8. Like take-off be ready to be lively on the rudders initially to keep straight and once you get back to 100kmh or so you can pull back on the stick to lock the tailwheel and then tap the brakes to slow down and lightly use differential if needs be to keep straight

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If you are landing on all three wheels at once then you risk the chance of damaging the tail wheel. Fly level, reduce power slowly and let try landing on the main wheels first and then let the tail slowly drop as the lift bleeds off.

 

No matter how good the flight model, simulator without force feedback/ G forces just doesn't quite replicate for me. Might need to upgrade : )

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Yes because of that big nose ;)

 

I have to disagree! I too have a big nose, and I always land in 2 points! :P

 

Well, one thing I have noticed is that some of you are using throttle to control speed on your final approach. This is not the correct procedure.

 

Use speed to increase / decrease your rate of descent on the short final. Of course the prop effects have to be anticipated if you make considerable

throttle adjustments. Use pitch ( and pitch trim as far as you can ) to set your final approach speed.

 

I found that, without significant wind, coming down at around 220-230 km/h is my best choice. Avoid shallow approaches - begin higher for better visual

contact with the rw. Cut power as low as possible ( not more than 10m above the ground ) and from there on, pull the stick to keep the aircraft almost at

the touchdown attitude all the way until contacting the ground. Ease just a bit if you start climbing in ground effect. If you balloon, never ever!! give stick - freeze it!


Edited by jcomm

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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Since this topic has been made sticky and split up in a Take-Off and a landing one, it's messy.

Win11 Pro 64-bit, Ryzen 5800X3D, Corsair H115i, Gigabyte X570S UD, EVGA 3080Ti XC3 Ultra 12GB, 64 GB DDR4 G.Skill 3600. Monitors: LG 27GL850-B27 2560x1440 + Samsung SyncMaster 2443 1920x1200, HOTAS: Warthog with Virpil WarBRD base, MFG Crosswind combat pedals, TrackIR4, Rift-S.

Personal Wish List: A6 Intruder, Vietnam theater, decent ATC module, better VR performance!

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It's quite interesting how you can feel the difference between the Mustang and the Dora.

It has been advised that you have to do three point landing with the Dora. But with a crosswind I find it easier to land it with the upwind wheel first, just like the in the Mustang.

The fw 190 has large landing gear, imagine how it will be with the tricky 109 landing gear :)

 

here is my second attempt of crosswind landing (10 m/s wind from the left).

http://youtu.be/0rnoEOFtScw

In the first one I tried to do a three point landing, but I was all over the runway:fear:

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How would Fw190 D-9 land on real WWII airfields?!

 

Well, finally I managed to land the D9 safely into Krymsk. Repeatedly. So far so good.

But I was always using almost the full length of the runway, which is 8.530 ft or 2.600 meter.

 

At the time when the Fw 190 D-9 was going to service most of the German airfields were grass strips

with an average runway length of 800 to 1200 m. Only very few fields were later extended with concrete runways with a length up to 1400 m.

 

I have no idea how I could bring down this special bird safely on such a short runway as this.

All the landing techniques proposed here assume an approach speed of 220 km/h (IAS) with flaring smoothly to 170 km/h for touch down.

If doing so I’ll easily need to have 1500 m to 2000 m landing distance. And, after touch down, I start praying that I may slow down the beast before reaching the end

of the 2,6 km runway avoiding a headstand or run into the grass beside the runway.

 

I should mention that I was owner of an real antique tail dragger, I have logged 600 hours flying time on it.

 

Comparing the flight behavior between the D9 with the P-51D I have to say, that the P-51D flies as easy as a toy.

The P-51D has an uncritical flying attitude, everything is well under your control.

The D-9 in contrast is fully different, unpredictable flying attitude, needs full attention each second.

 

If the flight model of the FW 190 D-9 reproduces the flight physics of the real plane well, then I ask myself, how smart were the young German pilots.

These young boys were being deployed to combat only a few weeks after training in a double seated trainer (190 A-5/U1, A-8/U1, S-5).

But the D-9 was a fully different single seated plane with fully new flight characteristics.


Edited by wernst
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It's quite interesting how you can feel the difference between the Mustang and the Dora.

It has been advised that you have to do three point landing with the Dora. But with a crosswind I find it easier to land it with the upwind wheel first, just like the in the Mustang.

The fw 190 has large landing gear, imagine how it will be with the tricky 109 landing gear :)

 

here is my second attempt of crosswind landing (10 m/s wind from the left).

http://youtu.be/0rnoEOFtScw

In the first one I tried to do a three point landing, but I was all over the runway:fear:

 

Great! 2 point touchdown! In Dora!

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Well, finally I managed to land the D9 safely into Krymsk. Repeatedly. So far so good.

But I was always using almost the full length of the runway, which is 8.530 ft or 2.600 meter.

 

At the time when the Fw 190 D-9 was going to service most of the German airfields were grass strips

with an average runway length of 800 to 1200 m. Only very few fields were later extended with concrete runways with a length up to 1400 m.

 

I have no idea how I could bring down this special bird safely on such a short runway as this.

All the landing techniques proposed here assume an approach speed of 220 km/h (IAS) with flaring smoothly to 170 km/h for touch down.

If doing so I’ll easily need to have 1500 m to 2000 landing roll. And, after touch down, I start praying that I may slow down the beast before reaching the end

of the 2,6 km runway avoiding a headstand or run into the grass beside the runway.

 

I should mention that I was owner of an real antique tail dragger, I have logged 600 hours flying time on it.

 

Comparing the flight behavior between the D9 with the P-51D I have to say, that the P-51D flies as easy as a toy.

The P-51D has an uncritical flying attitude, everything is well under your control.

The D-9 in contrast is fully different, unpredictable flying attitude, needs full attention each second.

 

If the flight model of the FW 190 D-9 reproduces the flight physics of the real plane well, then I ask myself, how smart were the young German pilots.

These young boys were being deployed to combat only a few weeks after training in a double seated trainer (190 A-5/U1, A-8/U1, S-5).

But the D-9 was a fully different single seated plane with fully new flight characteristics.

 

Flying a real plane you should know that the physical feedback you get from the forces applied to you, the engine vibrations and tells, the sense of speed, all are invaluable signs you are completely missing when flying a plane in a computed environment.

 

Takeoff would of been much easier with those, so are landings, but alas, we're limited so we have to deal with what we got!

 

Here are some short tips I compiled from trying to land the Dora successfully:

 

 

1. Your approach should be slightly higher than regular, for visibility purposes of course

 

2. Once you are on the final leg, set engine to 1,800RPM, with flaps set to Landing and gears down, you should average around 230km/h with a steady -3 to -5degrees of vertical velocity.

 

3. Once you are over the runway, start flaring using the previous engine settings while dipping your RPM slowly and gently to the lower 1300's, you should be able to execute a smooth 3 pointer without dragging the aircraft into the dangerous flight regime.

 

4. After touchdown, crotch the stick and don't let go. Use the wheel brakes to stay straight down the runway, don't ride the brakes, gently apply each side until completely level.

 

This entire process shouldn't take longer than around 1km of tarmac. If you manage to touchdown right on the start of the runway it will be much less (around 500m,600m)

 

 

Important things to note while landing which I found trivial:

 

* Always watch your vertical velocity and never exceed 5 on the final leg. Abrupt pulls at low speeds are your enemy.

 

* Touchdown is safe anywhere from 210kmh to 170kmh as suggested, depending on your vertical velocity you might bounce at higher speeds. I always land below -2.5m/s, anything below that and you are golden at any speed.

 

* RPM settings are a good indicator to how to perform your landings safely. Experiment with different settings on multiple approaches to see which one brings you safely home. I've found that between 1500-1800RPM is my sweet spot throughout the entire final leg

 

* Practice!!! Do it again and again, after a while it'll become second nature :)

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Well, finally I managed to land the D9 safely into Krymsk. Repeatedly. So far so good.

But I was always using almost the full length of the runway, which is 8.530 ft or 2.600 meter.

 

At the time when the Fw 190 D-9 was going to service most of the German airfields were grass strips

with an average runway length of 800 to 1200 m. Only very few fields were later extended with concrete runways with a length up to 1400 m.

 

I have no idea how I could bring down this special bird safely on such a short runway as this.

All the landing techniques proposed here assume an approach speed of 220 km/h (IAS) with flaring smoothly to 170 km/h for touch down.

If doing so I’ll easily need to have 1500 m to 2000 m landing distance. And, after touch down, I start praying that I may slow down the beast before reaching the end

of the 2,6 km runway avoiding a headstand or run into the grass beside the runway.

 

I should mention that I was owner of an real antique tail dragger, I have logged 600 hours flying time on it.

 

Comparing the flight behavior between the D9 with the P-51D I have to say, that the P-51D flies as easy as a toy.

The P-51D has an uncritical flying attitude, everything is well under your control.

The D-9 in contrast is fully different, unpredictable flying attitude, needs full attention each second.

 

If the flight model of the FW 190 D-9 reproduces the flight physics of the real plane well, then I ask myself, how smart were the young German pilots.

These young boys were being deployed to combat only a few weeks after training in a double seated trainer (190 A-5/U1, A-8/U1, S-5).

But the D-9 was a fully different single seated plane with fully new flight characteristics.

 

Somebody has 180 deg different point of view considering Dora more stable and predictable... :)

I think your approach has wrong flaring point. You have to touchdown at the start of the airstrip.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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If the flight model of the FW 190 D-9 reproduces the flight physics of the real plane well, then I ask myself, how smart were the young German pilots.

 

All young people in Germany are pretty smart, not only pilots. At least that's what I thought when I was younger. And I must know, since I am from Germany :-)

 

But puns aside, I think the problem we all suffer is that we are trying to land props as we have been landing jets. I recently had the chance to land a Cessna (I know) and boy was I in for a surprise when I was asked to aim with the nose for the end of the runway all the way down to the flare. Afterwards I tried to land this way in the P51 and then the Fw190 and it makes things a lot easier. Landing the A10 and F16 by placing the donut on the runway and keeping an eye out for the AOA is nothing you can do in a prop driven kite I guess. Diving for the runway also has the benefit of being able to see the runway regardless of how long and big the engine in front of you is.

 

My technique currently: ~ 20-30 deg. dive, idle throttle, gear and flaps out which keeps here around 280. Then flare pretty late and let her settle at all 3 points. It only works most of the time so don't follow this stuff to the letter.

 

-Mathias

My System: Intel Core i7-4770K, Asus ROG Strix RX480 O8G, 24GB Ram

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If all is properly done the stop point of the plane is 780 m from the threshold. Just checked.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Everybody say during the take off we must have full power with the Dora

It's not strange for one Warbird ?

To have full power the torque is not too powerfull ?

Thanks for your explanations. Skull

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If all is properly done the stop point of the plane is 780 m from the threshold. Just checked.

 

. . . . . I think your approach has wrong flaring point. You have to touchdown at the start of the airstrip.

 

 

"780m"!?! well done.

If you have headwind it might even be shorter. Great, unbelievable.

 

It's only possible to hit the start of the runway

- when you are tin can high 5 - 10m before the runway starts

- when have a perfect setting for speed and rate of descent which enable smooth flare and smooth touchdown

- when, after touchdown, you apply wheel brakes carefully but efficiently at the same time

 

Trying to hit the start of the runway or the threshold is highly ambitious not to say only possible by fortune.

I'd like to see videos here from those lucky pilots.


Edited by wernst
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"780m"!?! well done.

If you have headwind it might even be shorter. Great, unbelievable.

 

This is only possible if you hit the rundway threshold just at that moment

- when you are tin can high 5 - 10m before the threshold

- when have a perfect setting for speed and rate of descent which enable smooth flare and smooth touchdown

- when, after touchdown, you apply wheel brakes carefully but efficiently at the same time

 

Trying to hit the runway threshold is highly ambitious not to say only possible by fortune.

I'd like to see videos here from those lucky pilots.

 

No problem. And it was not 5-10 m touchdown, I remember it was not so precise. No wind for sure.

Just a stabilised approach at 6-7 m/s Vy, 220 kph.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Everybody say during the take off we must have full power with the Dora

It's not strange for one Warbird ?

To have full power the torque is not too powerfull ?

Thanks for your explanations. Skull

 

Full power is an overkill for airfields we have now. They are intended for jets and heavy transports so are long. Once we get a Normandy map with shorter fighter airfields, full power at takeoff and landing at the beginning of runway may become mandatory. :)

Wir sehen uns in Walhalla.

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Full power is an overkill for airfields we have now. They are intended for jets and heavy transports so are long. Once we get a Normandy map with shorter fighter airfields, full power at takeoff and landing at the beginning of runway may become mandatory. :)

 

Now I became to better understand Erich Brunotte's recipys - free tailwheel, full power just from the start, release brakes! Stick to the center and here we go... Seems the best way to TO for me because of the best and predictable controllability during takeoff.

 

By the way - I learned to perform hammerhead just following his directions. :)

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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What works for me is:

 

1. Throttle back until 400kmh

2. Lower a little flap and then some more as speed bleeds off until full flap and gear down at 300kmh. Trim up maximum.

3. Line up with the runway and come in with enough altitude and angle so that I can see the runway clearly for most of the way in. Going about a constant 250kmh at this point

5. Descend towards the runway threshold, lowering the throttle to keep speed at 250kmh

5. Lower the throttle some more as near the runway threshold - it might out of sight by this point but keep your frame of reference and it should appear in the side windows pretty quickly. Will be pulling back on the stick a bit all through this point as trim won't stop your descent enough

6. Should be going about 220kmh now as over the runway threshold and chop the throttle adjusting with rudders some more to keep straight

7. Just glide then over the runway while keeping the stick back a reasonable amount - you'll then gently flare and lose speed before touching down with all three points at 190-200kmh. This can take a short while to happen which isn't a problem - the runways are plenty long

8. Like take-off be ready to be lively on the rudders initially to keep straight and once you get back to 100kmh or so you can pull back on the stick to lock the tailwheel and then tap the brakes to slow down and lightly use differential if needs be to keep straight

 

Snap Ron!

 

that's precisely the profile I have come up with. Doesn't guarantee I won't screw it up when I'm actually going down the runway but it gets me down.

 

Actually in the instant action landing I drop the takeoff flap at about 450 to slow it down earlier (I haven't found the max speed for takeoff flaps yet) and hold altitude while it slows to 300 for gear/flaps. On landing I bring the stick back around 130kph with no tendency to lift off again.

 

I find 220kph approach, recommended by some, gets the nose too squirly.

klem

56 RAF 'Firebirds'

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I recommend to people having trouble landing her, to practice some slow flights.

@ 220 - 200 kph in dirty configuration (gear down, flaps on landing) and you try to play near the stall speed doing climbs, descents, turns to certain headings etc.

What's important is to use use power to change altitude (or control VSI) and pitch to maintain a certain air speed.

You'll learn how the torque has enormous effects and how you need very small corrections on the stick. If you're using too much correction she'll be gone, you have to let her stabilize by herself.

And do that at a secure altitude of course :)

 

I'll try to show some videos of all that (T/O, landings, slow flights etc...)

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"780m"!?! well done.

If you have headwind it might even be shorter. Great, unbelievable.

 

It's only possible to hit the start of the runway

- when you are tin can high 5 - 10m before the runway starts

- when have a perfect setting for speed and rate of descent which enable smooth flare and smooth touchdown

- when, after touchdown, you apply wheel brakes carefully but efficiently at the same time

 

Trying to hit the start of the runway or the threshold is highly ambitious not to say only possible by fortune.

I'd like to see videos here from those lucky pilots.

 

 

Just repeated the landing. 760 m from the threshold but the point of touchdown was in 400 (!) m from the threshold. So the real roll was about 360 m. I think that even this bad (400 m is obviously bad!) approach gives you a chance to use 800 m airstrip safely.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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