Jump to content

Dora vs Mustang: Turning


Hummingbird

Recommended Posts

uhm Thank you!..But I did not understand a single word...a bit too technical for my brain:D...but I guess it means..the performance data of the P-51 is not that realistic?!:):huh:

What Hummingbird said is just his speculation. Mustang and Dora were pretty close at turning.

 

The Dora will have better instantanious turn at higher speeds and mustang will have better sustained turn in game.

 

AI has boosts, so he will be better at maintaining energy and speed, but it lacks skill of a human in maneuvering. That is where you kill it.

 

That might interest you though:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html


Edited by Solty

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 222
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

AI planes fly with perfect trim and all other benefits so there is no comparison to be had with player controlled versions.

 

On another note, that the P-51 has been favored / biased here is your opinion. One you weren't able to back up with sufficient evidence. Please continue.

 

Actually I backed it up with substantial evidence, that you choose to ignore it only speaks as to where your heart lies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What Hummingbird said is just his speculation. Mustang and Dora were pretty close at turning.

 

The Dora will have better instantanious turn at higher speeds and mustang will have better sustained turn in game.

 

AI has boosts, so he will be better at maintaining energy and speed, but it lacks skill of a human in maneuvering. That is where you kill it.

 

That might interest you though:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html

 

Looking at combat reports is useless as those from the other side always contradict them, i.e. you look at German combat reports they will say the exact opposite.

 

In short it's fairly non-objective to consider the reports from one side only.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually I backed it up with substantial evidence, that you choose to ignore it only speaks as to where your heart lies.

 

No offense I hope. As an engineer by profession it lies where the evidence / math is. Again, nothing more than speculations you failed to back up with evidence and calculations unlike others.

P8Z68 | 2500k @ 4.5 | GTX 1080Ti | 2x8 GB @ 1600 | TM Hog (extended 7cm) & MFG Crosswind (S/N 007) | TIR v5

WWII bomber formations | DCS P-51D: [TEST] TO distance / gross weight / temperature

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After playing around with the Dora quite a while I still have a very hard time Dogfighting the Mustang...o.k. maybe I am just a shitty Dogfighter, but it seems the Mustang outturns and outclimbs me easily..even with engaged supercharger?! It also needs a LOT of Hits to shoot the P-51 down..this Bird really can take damage..

For fun I created an AI Furball..8 FW-190 vs 8 P-51...all set to exellent....everytime I watch this it goes 8:0 for the P-51..so all Doras shot down..the P-51s nearly no scratches...

 

Was the P-51D really so far superior?!

 

There is no advice in the whole world, which will help You to win the dogfight. Just try and try and kill the bastard. Trade Your energy for whatever You currently need and get Your nose on him. Forget turning rates, engines power and such bullsh**. Do everything to get him out of the skies. Dogfight is about instincts and not about technique. Just know Your airplane and nothing can stop You from taking the opponent down. And watch the tracks in DCS. Soon You will realize, where You made mistake...just shoot, shoot and shoot...during every opportunity. The enemy will get in the way of Your bullets one day. :thumbup:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no advice in the whole world, which will help You to win the dogfight. Just try and try and kill the bastard. Trade Your energy for whatever You currently need and get Your nose on him. Forget turning rates, engines power and such bullsh**. Do everything to get him out of the skies. Dogfight is about instincts and not about technique. Just know Your airplane and nothing can stop You from taking the opponent down. And watch the tracks in DCS. Soon You will realize, where You made mistake...just shoot, shoot and shoot...during every opportunity. The enemy will get in the way of Your bullets one day. :thumbup:

 

This is maybe the best advice. Dora needs some time to improve pilots skill and is very rewarding. Shooting at will is also good advice. AI models are little bit like flying tanks, but any ability to hit real (player) opponent will make him to fall back or crash, wastes his fuel, damage propeller, damage weapons system and so. I am little bit afraid that this AI model will force training players to make some bad dogfighting habits. Like waiting to shoot only at the time where it is almost sure to turn enemy into pieces. But player model airframe is much more fragile and vulnerable. Shooting at any opportunity is better choice there.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is maybe the best advice. Dora needs some time to improve pilots skill and is very rewarding. Shooting at will is also good advice. AI models are little bit like flying tanks, but any ability to hit real (player) opponent will make him to fall back or crash, wastes his fuel, damage propeller, damage weapons system and so. I am little bit afraid that this AI model will force training players to make some bad dogfighting habits. Like waiting to shoot only at the time where it is almost sure to turn enemy into pieces. But player model airframe is much more fragile and vulnerable. Shooting at any opportunity is better choice there.

 

Oh thank You. :-))))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everything starts and ends with the pilot's skill. If You are a good hunter, You will kill the deer with a bare bow. If not, You are not gonna get him even with the latest high-tech rifle. :-)

Unfortunately in dogfighting the deer has a high quality precision rifle and shoots back at you! So a shoot out bow vs rifle nay turn out badly!? :)

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Normally discussions of turn rate are too simplified, with participants never considering lift coefficients. In this case I think some are ignoring good old wing area. The 190's wingloading is much higher than the P-51's.

 

We only have two WW2 aircraft to test out and already there are accusations of bias. Going down that road is just an admission that you were not able to convince yo-yo that he did something wrong. Maybe he'll change his mind in the future, but the "bias" accusation is not what he deserves after he dove in and participated in a FM forum discussion.


Edited by gavagai

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The NACA 23XXX series airfoil has always featured a higher CL_max than the NACA 6 series, esp. considering a wing surface in operational condition.

 

Could you elaborate? What does "...wing surface in operational condition" mean?


Edited by chaos

"It's not the years, honey. It's the mileage..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

o.k. so the AI Mustang is a bit "overpowered"..that might explain my AI Furball Dora desaster:) And I am able to win a dogfight against the P-51..it just takes very long..and even if I pumped most of my ammo into the Mustang and it smokes like an old lokomotive..it still climbs and turns like crazy..


Edited by Lizzard

My Specs:

I don`t care..it is a Computer..a black one..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DM and AI DM in particular requires some TLC. This much has been acknowledged by devs.

 

Unless you knock off a wing or set him on fire, he will continue flying as if nothing happened. No matter his whole fuselage is riddled with holes.

 

Same experience if you take on Dora in a Mustang.

P8Z68 | 2500k @ 4.5 | GTX 1080Ti | 2x8 GB @ 1600 | TM Hog (extended 7cm) & MFG Crosswind (S/N 007) | TIR v5

WWII bomber formations | DCS P-51D: [TEST] TO distance / gross weight / temperature

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DM and AI DM in particular requires some TLC. This much has been acknowledged by devs.

 

Unless you knock off a wing or set him on fire, he will continue flying as if nothing happened. No matter his whole fuselage is riddled with holes.

 

Same experience if you take on Dora in a Mustang.

 

o.k. thanks!:thumbup:

My Specs:

I don`t care..it is a Computer..a black one..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at combat reports is useless as those from the other side always contradict them, i.e. you look at German combat reports they will say the exact opposite.

 

In short it's fairly non-objective to consider the reports from one side only.

So I can't send somebody something interesting because... bias?

 

You are so... finish this line yourself. I like to read them as those are in english. I don't know German so I don't have these reports. He seems to know little about Dogfighting so he can at least check some reports.

 

We live in a free world and I can post anything I want.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

o.k. so the AI Mustang is a bit "overpowered"..that might explain my AI Furball Dora desaster:) And I am able to win a dogfight against the P-51..it just takes very long..and even if I pumped most of my ammo into the Mustang and it smokes like an old lokomotive..it still climbs and turns like crazy..

 

You can keep practicing against the Ai but don't put to much into it. The AI usual does the same moves and once you get behind it ... it pulls straight up. Once you get better at gunnery it will take you less than 60 rounds. I've taken an AI mustangs wings off with as few as 17 and I've been shot down by the AI with as few as 4 (engine kill in headon). EVERYTHING will change once you start facing human pilots online. Getting hits and staying alive is harder but player airplanes are fully modeled so they take less damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No offense I hope. As an engineer by profession it lies where the evidence / math is. Again, nothing more than speculations you failed to back up with evidence and calculations unlike others.

 

Again, the evidence was provided, you simply choose to ignore it.

 

As for the math, what do you need? Calculating turn rate, speed specific G- forces, stalling speeds etc etc? None of it is a problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I can't send somebody something interesting because... bias?

 

You are so... finish this line yourself. I like to read them as those are in english. I don't know German so I don't have these reports. He seems to know little about Dogfighting so he can at least check some reports.

 

We live in a free world and I can post anything I want.

 

I never said you couldn't post it, you can post what'ever you want, as can I - as long we respect the forum rules.

 

What I wrote were words of caution not to take the words of one side only as the definitive truth. Does that bother you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no advice in the whole world, which will help You to win the dogfight. Just try and try and kill the bastard. Trade Your energy for whatever You currently need and get Your nose on him. Forget turning rates, engines power and such bullsh**. Do everything to get him out of the skies. Dogfight is about instincts and not about technique. Just know Your airplane and nothing can stop You from taking the opponent down. And watch the tracks in DCS. Soon You will realize, where You made mistake...just shoot, shoot and shoot...during every opportunity. The enemy will get in the way of Your bullets ongoing toe day. :thumbup:

 

While I agree with most of this... a few things to consider.

When attacking you should always be planning 2 or 3 moves ahead of your current one. This does require flying technique coz if you fly 'ham fisted', you're going to lose advantage.

I would also not 'spray n pray', as this will indicate to your opponent that you are probably a rookie. Practise deflection shooting where you fire along a line +-50 feet either side of the a/c - let it fly through the shells.

You can get very effective with 0.5 second bursts... and still have plenty ammo for the other 7 aircraft :music_whistling:

 

Essentially 3 things to practise... Combat 'awareness' (your/his/her aircraft), flying technique and shooting skills.

Also be prepared to do the unusual (imagination)... as following the book makes you and easy opponent.

:pilotfly:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I agree with most of this... a few things to consider.

When attacking you should always be planning 2 or 3 moves ahead of your current one. This does require flying technique coz if you fly 'ham fisted', you're going to lose advantage.

I would also not 'spray n pray', as this will indicate to your opponent that you are probably a rookie. Practise deflection shooting where you fire along a line +-50 feet either side of the a/c - let it fly through the shells.

You can get very effective with 0.5 second bursts... and still have plenty ammo for the other 7 aircraft :music_whistling:

 

Essentially 3 things to practise... Combat 'awareness' (your/his/her aircraft), flying technique and shooting skills.

Also be prepared to do the unusual (imagination)... as following the book makes you and easy opponent.

:pilotfly:

I woulld like to add some more advices to this thread. I really don't know if Mustang is far too better in turns. Maybe a little (in AI case a lot), which can buy him some advantage. Talking about flying technique and tactic always remind of many dogfighting videos I have seen so far. Think some steps forward is good way how to beat more agile, although slower, opponent. Many pilots does the mistake as they are trying to behave like some stupid version of SAM. They try to fly towards their enemy regardless of its trace. It is almost impossible to get behind him as they just cannot outturn him. Sitting in faster energy fighter is advantage only when you know or figure out how to use it. Doing climbing or combat turns, looping behind enemy and so. Mustang maybe turns little bit better, but the kill comes with the technique.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no advice in the whole world, which will help You to win the dogfight. Just try and try and kill the bastard. Trade Your energy for whatever You currently need and get Your nose on him. Forget turning rates, engines power and such bullsh**. Do everything to get him out of the skies. Dogfight is about instincts and not about technique. Just know Your airplane and nothing can stop You from taking the opponent down. And watch the tracks in DCS. Soon You will realize, where You made mistake...just shoot, shoot and shoot...during every opportunity. The enemy will get in the way of Your bullets one day. :thumbup:

 

BFM training unteaches your instincts because humans did not evolve to be fighter pilots. Our natural tendencies are frequently wrong and lethal. Success in air combat requires both aggression and discipline. Many people are naturally aggressive or naturally disciplined; almost no one is both without a lot of practice and training. You seem to have the aggression thing down, but you will always be held back if you ignore the discipline side of it. There is a reason why the USAF prefers guys with physics degrees and just guys who enjoy danger.


Edited by gavagai

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never said you couldn't post it, you can post what'ever you want, as can I - as long we respect the forum rules.

 

What I wrote were words of caution not to take the words of one side only as the definitive truth. Does that bother you?

Your acussations bother me. Instead of saying what you said in your previous post, you could just post links to German reports, or just write it in a way that doesn't state that my posted link is "only as definitive truth". Moreover, that shows that you can beat any plane with any plane. It is the pilot that counts. Surely, those that died from enemy fire cannot say "I never had problems with 109 or 190" as they never made it to do so.

 

Obviously combat reports are just somebody's way of describing what a person has experienced and it is always going to be subjective. Only your lack of good will provoked you to that kind of thinking and acused me of beeing onesided. cry.gif

 

I've had enough. It is safer not to share any sources on flying forums. That way I would aviod 90% of commentary like yours.

  • Like 1

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...