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Cannon is weak


nick10

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i think, those complaints are a tad bit too early.

its still in beta, but more importantly, guys need to get used to aim correctly in the dora.

 

i am flying the p51 for almost two years now, on a very regular basis(almost daily), and i still see my aiming improving constantly(very slowly though!)

in fact, now after those two years, i consider dcs to be by far the best sim modeling ballistics and gunnery.i strongly disagree with the 50.cals beeing too weak in the other thread.

 

and here for the cannons, i cant yet comment on it, except that i think its way too early to really give an educated opinion about it.i have to improve big time with my aim in the fw190, and so far all i can complain is about my skills or better the lack of with aiming in the fw190.i noticed though in singleplayer, that the cannon can shoot of wings and detach fuselages of p51s with probably 1single bullet.had that twice already, once the wing and once i cut off the tail of a p51 with i think literally 1cannon hit.

 

never yet managed than in mp, as of course human pilots are more agile,clever challenging...

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That's kind of the point of cannon. You are meant to be able to hit your target anywhere and blow bits off. It's not about having to hit the target in the right spot.

 

That's why cannon was introduced!

 

Cheers guys. I know its a beta and I'm sure these issues will be addressed.

 

Why should it not be necessary to hit in critical points even with cannon fire?

 

Hit somewhere without critical structure, or systems and you'd make a hole. Hit the engine, and shatter the crank, and the engine will fail. Shatter a wing spar, and the wing will fold.

 

Maybe you expect more damage that you're getting because you are used to less realistic renderings of battle damage? I'd keep an open mind, and not jump to conclusions.

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Here is what you need to remember about DCS and damage... its a texture replacement as the amount of damage increases... so you hit him very little maybe, and because of this it was not enough to cause the texture to change to the next "stage" of damage. Its not like a wall in BF4 that will show a bullet hole for the bullet you just fired...

 

It doesnt mean you havent done any damage to the P-51D, but that you havent done enough to cause the texture to change to the first stage of damage textures...

 

Ya, and that may be what's getting me and other people, if you need to get a section (or the entire plane as it may be - I know very little about how the DM works) to xx% integrity before damage shows.

 

Maybe a sticky post somewhere with a general overview of how the DM works (maybe something similar already exists) in general would make people less frustrated when it comes to rectifying what they think should be happening with what they're seeing. Even the post above this one demonstrates the "the canon should be blowing bits off / why should it not be necessary to hit critical points" arguement/counter. You might have blown a bit off, it just wasn't a very critical part, so it doesn't necessarily get rendered.

 

Anyway, I don't take it too hard, from that same video I can demonstrate what a solid hit does in short order, so I just try to save my bullets for worthwhile shots.

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I find the cannon to be quite powerful!

 

It didn't take me much to turn the Mustang into a fireball in this Dogfight. A few hits with the cannon and it's down:



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  • ED Team

Nice kill.

 

I think people forget about convergence as well... if you are not at the ideal range for this, only some of your guns might hit, angles are a big deal, many of these quick kill vids you need to watch the angle of the enemy plane, are you shooting at him when he is giving you the most meat to shoot at? or are you directly on his six... it makes a difference...

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Sithspawn...

 

This makes sense on the P-52D where the guns are mor widely spread on the wings.

But on the FW-190 where the guns are on the nose and the cannons very close to wingroot (still withing the propeller disc), convergence has very little impact.

 

While there are some dispersion of the bullets/shells, I have numerous times been so close on the enemy (TU-95 f.ex) that my entire gunsight was filled with target.

While dispersion still playes a role, as well as bobbing up and down, firing 20m cannonshells should still have far greater impact.

 

On other occasions I have found that being at a very specific distance can have far greater effect.

 

Maybe damagepoints are calculated to be much higher when the rounds/shells are hitting at a specific distance, simulating the convergence effect.

 

 

FinnJ

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Even being in close you have to remember that the guns on the nose are up higher than the ones on the wings... so if they are set to meet at a point, if you aren't at that range you can have issues...

 

All I am trying to say really is that before you call foul with the game, make sure your marksmanship is fine :) I had troubles when first testing the Dora, but I feel like I am in a better place now, and do much better with the guns...

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I don't think the problem is hitting the target so much, it is that that target maintains 100% control and power etc no matter how much damage he has taken, that certainly is down to the game currently.

 

Well that is a problem too right, when the AI can fly perfectly under any condition, what is a few holes to him ;)

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I wont go as far as saying there isnt a problem, but in order for me to convey that to the Dev team I need hard evidence. The issue I am having here is that it seems as about as consistent as I would expect... sometimes I get the target right where I want him and tear him to shreds, other times I fire and the wrong time, and maybe score some hits, but not a kill...

 

I have some ideas on how to test this, and will get back, but at the same time, if you have a track or info showing a problem, make sure you share it hear... just saying that there is a problem because you didnt kill the AI when you think you should have doesnt help.

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Sithspawn...

 

This makes sense on the P-52D where the guns are mor widely spread on the wings.

But on the FW-190 where the guns are on the nose and the cannons very close to wingroot (still withing the propeller disc), convergence has very little impact.

 

While there are some dispersion of the bullets/shells, I have numerous times been so close on the enemy (TU-95 f.ex) that my entire gunsight was filled with target.

While dispersion still playes a role, as well as bobbing up and down, firing 20m cannonshells should still have far greater impact.

 

On other occasions I have found that being at a very specific distance can have far greater effect.

 

Maybe damagepoints are calculated to be much higher when the rounds/shells are hitting at a specific distance, simulating the convergence effect.

 

 

FinnJ

You have to take into account that convergence is not only relevant for the horizontal, but also as well for the vertical aspect of the bullet trajectory. The different bullets have different ballistic properties that affect the bullet drop. Therefore, in order to make sure that the trajectories of both bullet types converge not only horizontally, but also vertically, the guns have different muzzle elevations.

 

The result can be that one type of bullets hit the target while the others pass it below or above - if the distance is not ideal.

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I just setup a flight with player in a FW-190 behind a friendly P-51D

 

Looking on the after action events I found the P-51D was hit with these rounds, before it said "Engine shutdown":

 

22 20mm MGsch

12 20mm HEI

13 20mm API

7 13mm APT

12 13mm HEI

10 13mm API

 

No other failures or damage was reported on teh P-51D.

 

Maybe it comes down to a rather simple damage model.

 

Various hit´s will only make visible damage in terms of new textures with bullet holes - but no degradation of flight performance.

 

3-7 hitboxes, counting number of hits and will fail at a certain value:

1 for the fuselage/single engine

1 for left wing

1 for right wing

1 for each wingmounted engine (multi engine)

 

Damage is either full functional or fully damaged - so On/Off.

 

The engine(s) might start to smoke at 50%, but performance only drop when at 100% - thus fully damaged.

 

 

FinnJ


Edited by fjacobsen

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The AI does use the SFM, not the PFM. SO systems are not modelled in the AI, so its hitpoints based I believe.

 

I just setup a flight with player in a FW-190 behind a friendly P-51D

 

Looking on the after action events I found the P-51D was hit with these rounds, before it said "Engine shutdown":

 

22 20mm MGsch

12 20mm HEI

13 20mm API

7 13mm APT

12 13mm HEI

10 13mm API

 

No other failures or damage was reported on teh P-51D.

 

Maybe it comes down to a rather simple damage model.

 

Various hit´s will only make visible damage in terms of new textures with bullet holes - but no degradation of flight performance.

 

3-7 hitboxes, counting number of hits and will fail at a certain value:

1 for the fuselage/single engine

1 for left wing

1 for right wing

1 for each wingmounted engine (multi engine)

 

Damage is either full functional or fully damaged - so On/Off.

 

 

FinnJ

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The AI does use the SFM, not the PFM. SO systems are not modelled in the AI, so its hitpoints based I believe.

 

So...

The engine(s) might start to smoke at 50%, but performance only drop when at 100% - thus fully damaged ?

 

FinnJ

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So...

The engine(s) might start to smoke at 50%, but performance only drop when at 100% - thus fully damaged ?

 

FinnJ

 

I am unsure how the hitpoints on the engine area work, if it will cause the engine to perform poorly for the AI, something for me to ask.

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Would it be possible to clarify as well what we're seeing in the AAR and the recorded hits? Is each individual hit recorded just a single time or can a single hit result in multiple penetrations and / or fragmentations and be recorded multiple times in the AAR as a result? If the latter that would go some way towards explaining the high number of .50 cal and 20mm cannon rounds planes seem to be able to absorb.

 

I'm just struggling to see a plane absorb 25 of these and still be hanging together:

 

spit_close-call_20mmhit.jpg

 

The occasional time might be possible but by and large a plane taking 25 20mm grenade hits anywhere is going to be out of the game.

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I´m sure that with the constant feedback from SithSpawn and his connection with the dev´s that this module will grow and eecome even more outstanding.

 

It´s nice to se our posts being answered be some "Officials, somthing we miss in the Belsimtek forums at present, ever since EvilBivol-1 has gone on standby (Due to personla reasons afaik).

 

FinnJ


Edited by fjacobsen

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Why should it not be necessary to hit in critical points even with cannon fire?

 

Hit somewhere without critical structure, or systems and you'd make a hole. Hit the engine, and shatter the crank, and the engine will fail. Shatter a wing spar, and the wing will fold.

 

Maybe you expect more damage that you're getting because you are used to less realistic renderings of battle damage? I'd keep an open mind, and not jump to conclusions.

 

Neither 20mm HEI nor Minengeschoss is at all likely to break structural members. Blast effect is a very poor damage mechanism against spars. Both 20mm AP and .50 API (or even ball! ) is more suitable for that. HE blast effect is only efficient against low - strength, high- surface - area targets (like the thin skin, or in the context of HE bombs, it works against building walls but was poor at destroying the machine tools INSIDE the factories). Totally different damage mechanisms.

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Neither 20mm HEI nor Minengeschoss is at all likely to break structural members. Blast effect is a very poor damage mechanism against spars. Both 20mm AP and .50 API (or even ball! ) is more suitable for that. HE blast effect is only efficient against low - strength, high- surface - area targets (like the thin skin, or in the context of HE bombs, it works against building walls but was poor at destroying the machine tools INSIDE the factories). Totally different damage mechanisms.

 

But still...

 

Look at the number of various hits I got !!

47 hits of 20mm of various types

29 hits of 13mm of various types

 

High explosive weapons, like cannon shells and general purpose bombs and rockets are all very weak.

With bombs and rockets You need a direct hit to cause damage even on soft targets like trucks.

 

 

FinnJ

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I'm not sure you can always trust the counts in the briefing report at the end of the mission, I think they have issues...

 

Would it be possible to clarify as well what we're seeing in the AAR and the recorded hits? Is each individual hit recorded just a single time or can a single hit result in multiple penetrations and / or fragmentations and be recorded multiple times in the AAR as a result? If the latter that would go some way towards explaining the high number of .50 cal and 20mm cannon rounds planes seem to be able to absorb.

 

I'm just struggling to see a plane absorb 25 of these and still be hanging together:

 

big%20hole

 

The occasional time might be possible but by and large a plane taking 25 20mm grenade hits anywhere is going to be out of the game.

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But still...

 

Look at the number of various hits I got !!

47 hits of 20mm of various types

29 hits of 13mm of various types

 

High explosive weapons, like cannon shells and general purpose bombs and rockets are all very weak.

With bombs and rockets You need a direct hit to cause damage even on soft targets like trucks.

 

 

FinnJ

 

I agree that the 20mm (like the .50) seems to have damage model problems. However (!) The more post - mission debrief I see, the more I think the number in the parenthesis is some kind of damage factor, NOT the raw number of projectiles hit. Consider that the MG131 has talmost twice the rate of fire, yet you scored, by your count, half again more 20mm hits than 13mm.

 

I think the real problem is that damage appears to be tracked by hit points in discrete sections (left outer wrong, left inner wing, left stabilator, vertical stabilizer, etc), rather than by the damage that each projectile does. This seems to result in situations where, say, if you hit with ten bullets in the left inner wing, it reduces hit points to zero and breaks the wing - but if you hit five in the inner wing and five in the outer, it only takes half the hit points from each, but NEITHER breaks. Realistically, it should have the SAME probability of hitting (and breaking! ) a wing spar either way.

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