Altflieger Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 (edited) Found this 30mm Mineshell test by British on spitfire wing at 100yds. Edited August 12, 2014 by Altflieger YT limk didn't work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krupi Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Found this 30mm Mineshell test by British on spitfire wing at 100yds. Lets leave the 30mm out of the discussion (At least until the 109 arrives)... why you ask.. well.... Need one say more... :smilewink: Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit Project IX Cockpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavagai Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Consider that the MG131 has talmost twice the rate of fire, yet you scored, by your count, half again more 20mm hits than 13mm. MG 131 ROF = 15rps MG 151/20 ROF = 12rps P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastfreddie Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I agree that the 20mm (like the .50) seems to have damage model problems. However (!) The more post - mission debrief I see, the more I think the number in the parenthesis is some kind of damage factor, NOT the raw number of projectiles hit. Consider that the MG131 has talmost twice the rate of fire, yet you scored, by your count, half again more 20mm hits than 13mm. I think the real problem is that damage appears to be tracked by hit points in discrete sections (left outer wrong, left inner wing, left stabilator, vertical stabilizer, etc), rather than by the damage that each projectile does. This seems to result in situations where, say, if you hit with ten bullets in the left inner wing, it reduces hit points to zero and breaks the wing - but if you hit five in the inner wing and five in the outer, it only takes half the hit points from each, but NEITHER breaks. Realistically, it should have the SAME probability of hitting (and breaking! ) a wing spar either way. I aim for the drop of the cannon rounds (red tracer) not for the green rounds (13mm) so I tend to land pretty close to the same number anyway but sometimes I'll only land 20s with the 13 overshooting. After getting better at aiming the FW190 ... atleast against the Ai I'm not totally sure the 20s are way underpowered. Problem seems that if you only hit 5-10 here and there the AI just keeps taking it. If you get in a great quick burst and land a combined number around 50 cannon/13mm rounds she goes down quickly. These burst would be very concentrated to a couple of small areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutOnTheOP Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 MG 131 ROF = 15rps MG 151/20 ROF = 12rps As best I know it, they are 950 and 600 rpm, respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy229 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 As best I know it, they are 950 and 600 rpm, respectively. The actual guns might have those cyclic rates but they are all shooting through the prop arc so they are going to be lower than max ROF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narushima Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 This is what I pumped into a P-51 AI and he still wouldn't go down. Not even after I rammed him. I was using unlimited ammo. This can't be right... FW 190 Dora performance charts: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128354 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted August 13, 2014 ED Team Share Posted August 13, 2014 This is what I pumped into a P-51 AI and he still wouldn't go down. Not even after I rammed him. I was using unlimited ammo. briefing This can't be right... Yeah, that isnt right... I have not experienced this... not to mention I am sure the briefing files are not reporting hits correctly. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narushima Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Yeah, that isnt right... I have not experienced this... not to mention I am sure the briefing files are not reporting hits correctly. This is pretty much all I experience. I can't fight the AI without unlimited ammo (and it seems I'll have to use unlimited fuel as well) because it simply doesn't die. In this particular match, towards the end, I was sitting behind the P-51 blasting at it's tail while 5 smoke trails coming from it's wings and fuselage were rolling over my plane. He was going about 180 km/h with flaps and landing gear down. He never tried to dodge the shots (why would he, he's immortal). Is there a way to mod the AI to die faster? Because this simply unplayable for me. FW 190 Dora performance charts: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128354 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted August 13, 2014 ED Team Share Posted August 13, 2014 This is pretty much all I experience. I can't fight the AI without unlimited ammo (and it seems I'll have to use unlimited fuel as well) because it simply doesn't die. In this particular match, towards the end, I was sitting behind the P-51 blasting at it's tail while 5 smoke trails coming from it's wings and fuselage were rolling over my plane. He was going about 180 km/h with flaps and landing gear down. He never tried to dodge the shots (why would he, he's immortal). Is there a way to mod the AI to die faster? Because this simply unplayable for me. Maybe include a track and someone can look and see if there is somewhere you can improve, as I said, I generally dont have this experience unless I slip up somewhere.... Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narushima Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 What is there to improve? I'm hitting him from every single direction. I'm hitting him from a bounce, I'm hitting him in a turn, I'm hitting him in a zoom, I'm hitting him while he's flying level at 180 km/h. I can see the hits. I can see the smoke trails coming out of him. The debrief screen confirms what I see. I am hitting him, it just doesn't affect him. If the AI has 5 smoke trails coming from it's plane, do you really think it's my aim that's the problem here? A P-51 taking 50+ 20mm shots is not a problem with my aim. And remember, just because you are not experiencing this problem doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist. I go to bed with a full stomach every nigh, but you won't see me claiming that world hunger doesn't exist. FW 190 Dora performance charts: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128354 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Is there a way to mod the AI to die faster? Because this simply unplayable for me. There is a trigger option I think for unit alive less than. If you set a unit to explode if it was alive at less than 99% it might be possible to take it out with a single bullet. Maybe include a track and someone can look and see if there is somewhere you can improve, as I said, I generally dont have this experience unless I slip up somewhere.... The bit about it being tail on made me think. It seems like it's quicker to get kills on the wings than anywhere else (besides pilot obviously). The fuselage/tail hitbox may be overly strong. I made a mission the other day where I was in a F-86 against 150 or so Fw-190's and I only killed 3 before running out of ammo (or 3.5 if you can me ramming a partially damaged one after my guns went dry). I was getting solid hits on these planes as I was factoring in for what seems like a bit of error in the F-86's radar sight (I think I had to aim the center of the sight slightly high to get really consistent hits). I was attacking tail on, and they could soak up a good number of hits. Now maybe a big chunk of metal fuselage could take that much fire, but I'm sure if it did, the elevators or rudder at least would be useless. DCS AI doesn't lose control surfaces until the control surface is completely destroyed. I could possibly replicate the track (or maybe I'll be lucky and it was the last mission I flew), though I don't know if you want it since the discussion here is on the Fw's cannon. Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narushima Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 There is a trigger option I think for unit alive less than. If you set a unit to explode if it was alive at less than 99% it might be possible to take it out with a single bullet. Thanks. I'll try that. FW 190 Dora performance charts: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128354 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der_Fred Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 There is a WW2 report somewhere that the LW pilots complained that their cannons were 'ineffective'... until some clever guy worked out that the cannons were exploding on contact - in most cases exploding outside the a/c frame = surface damage = useless. They then added a delay fuse, so the shell exploded inside the frame. the kill rate increased dramatically. Maybe DCS are using the former model. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted August 13, 2014 ED Team Share Posted August 13, 2014 What is there to improve? I'm hitting him from every single direction. I'm hitting him from a bounce, I'm hitting him in a turn, I'm hitting him in a zoom, I'm hitting him while he's flying level at 180 km/h. I can see the hits. I can see the smoke trails coming out of him. The debrief screen confirms what I see. I am hitting him, it just doesn't affect him. If the AI has 5 smoke trails coming from it's plane, do you really think it's my aim that's the problem here? A P-51 taking 50+ 20mm shots is not a problem with my aim. And remember, just because you are not experiencing this problem doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist. I go to bed with a full stomach every nigh, but you won't see me claiming that world hunger doesn't exist. Ok lets not get all dramatic, I will make it simple for you, if I cant not replicate the issue, I cannot report the issue. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narushima Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Ok, so I used Exorcet's idea, and it worked. I'm able to down the P-51 in 10 20mm hits or less. Wonderful :) Now I just have to figure out how to write a script that will either make the AI pilot bail or kill it instead of making the entire plane explode. I'll post it here if I manage to figure it out. FW 190 Dora performance charts: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128354 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Para_Bellum Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 20mm cannon rounds are simply ineffective for me at the moment. Just did a dogfight vs a Mustang and according to the debrief I hit it with 37 (!) 20mm rounds and 31 13mm rounds. Did I mention the Pony kept flying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjacobsen Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 20mm cannon rounds are simply ineffective for me at the moment. Just did a dogfight vs a Mustang and according to the debrief I hit it with 37 (!) 20mm rounds and 31 13mm rounds. Did I mention the Pony kept flying? I guess the question right now is what those numbers in parantesis are. Maybe it´s not number og hits, but damage points achieved. It sounds strange that the 20mm with a slower rate of fire gets more hits than the faster firing and better boresighted 13mm only hits 31 times. I´m sure that the dev´s are looking into this isue, as we allready got more threads reporting poor damage done by gun rounds and cannon shells. FinnJ i7-10700K 3.8-5.1Ghz, 32GB RAM, RTX 4070 12GB, 1 x 1 TB SSD, 2 x 2TB SSD2 TB, 1 x 2 TBHDD 7200 RPM, Win10 Home 64bit, Meta Quest 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Para_Bellum Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) Yep, a clarification here would be nice. I guess the question right now is what those numbers in parantesis are. Maybe it´s not number og hits, but damage points achieved. I just did another test and even if I don't count the numbers in parenthesis I get: MG20_82 API: 4 MG20_82 HEI-T: 5 MG20_82 MGesch: 3 That's 12 hits by 20mm cannon. And the Mustang kept flying. Several times now I've seen a Mustang suffer a series of cannon hits and just continue flying as if nothing happened. I see detonations, puffs of smoke and then.. nothing. Now I'm far from being a top gun but when in other combat flightsims I hit a fighter-sized aircraft with a good number of 20mm rounds it usually dies, not continues to perform all sorts of acrobatic manoeuvres. ATM the 20mm cannons just don't feel right. Edited August 14, 2014 by Para_Bellum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nervousenergy Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 There doesn't seem to be a lot of direct study research from WWII that I can find on relative effectiveness of various weapons/ammo configs, but quite a bit that came afterward (but of course was based on speculation and mathematical recreation.) Everything I can find quickly states that the Luftwaffe considered 20 20mm cannon shells sufficient, on average, to bring down a B-17, and that 3-4 20mm hits would bring down a single-engine fighter. Looking at the battle damage of planes that survived a 20mm hit from period photographs, this seems reasonable. There are precious few places on a WWII fighter that you can blow a fist-sized hole through it and not take out something fairly important. Once we get a more detailed damage model, hopefully this issue goes away. Pairing the CloD damage model with DCS flight model would be a dream. Even if the AI always flies a simplified flight model, it should be possible to cause a lot more performance effect than we get now due to destroyed control surfaces and drag. PC - 3900X - Asus Crosshair Hero VIII - NZXT Kraken 63 - 32 GB RAM - 2080ti - SB X-Fi Titanium PCIe - Alienware UW - Windows 10 Sim hardware - Warthog throttle - VKB Gunfighter III - CH Quadrant - Slaw Device Pedals - Obutto R3volution pit - HP Reverb G2 - 2X AuraSound shakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narushima Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Just an update, here's how a dogfight looks like when the P-51 is not an immortal god of the sky: FW 190 Dora performance charts: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128354 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted August 16, 2014 ED Team Share Posted August 16, 2014 How can you be sure you actually got 5 20mm cannon hits? From what I saw I couldnt see that you got 5 rounds into him, you started firing after he was almost past you, so maybe the left cannon got 2, maybe 3 at most? Dunno.... seems like a crutch doing it this way.... Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narushima Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 How can you be sure you actually got 5 20mm cannon hits? From what I saw I couldnt see that you got 5 rounds into him, you started firing after he was almost past you, so maybe the left cannon got 2, maybe 3 at most? Dunno.... seems like a crutch doing it this way.... Post mission briefing. Got 2 in the wing on the first pass near the beginning, and then 3 on the second pass. Any way, 5 hits was the average it took to down a ww2 fighter, some went down with 3, some went down with 10. So far 5 is also the average for me, so I'm pretty happy with the balance. There is a randomization factor in the DM though. I once downed a P-51 with 3 13mm hits (not even a single 20mm hit him), so I guess I must have hit something really important. FW 190 Dora performance charts: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128354 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted August 16, 2014 ED Team Share Posted August 16, 2014 I don't think briefing is reliable ;) Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Dunno.... seems like a crutch doing it this way.... It doesn't feel any more questionable to me than the current damage model, which certainly has its own issues. No matter what you end up going with it's a stand in at best for a better DM from ED (or maybe a comprehensive mod). Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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