Cannon is weak

[gavagai]

I don't think briefing is reliable ;)

 

:huh:

Explain why. Computers running algorithms do not lose count and they do not get distracted.

 

Let's not muddy the water just for the sake of playing devil's advocate.

[fastfreddie]

I've been constantly downing the AI P51 with less than 60 rounds and have killed it in as few as 22 total (11 20s, 11 13mm) now. Just think of Ai P51 as mobile target practice and not a real representation of the FW190s cannons. I shot down a human player in a 1 second burst in a head on yesterday. Quickly fired and looked back to see him plummeting to the ground on fire (no wings missing).

[Flagrum]

:huh:

Explain why. Computers running algorithms do not lose count and they do not get distracted.

 

Let's not muddy the water just for the sake of playing devil's advocate.

The report at the debriefing screen is not showing every single event. Instead it is a compressed report where "similar" events are represented as a single entry (those with a number in parenthesis attached).

 

So can for example a single Mk-82 damage two tanks and both tanks are listed as one hit. I think, the opposite is also possible ... although I can not come up with an example right now.

 

How of if at all this is actually relevant for the issue at hand ... I can not say, though.

[NineLine]

It doesn't feel any more questionable to me than the current damage model, which certainly has its own issues. No matter what you end up going with it's a stand in at best for a better DM from ED (or maybe a comprehensive mod).

 

I stand by that, I mean I have flown the 190 longer than you guys and I have no trouble with the AI, that isnt saying there isnt an issue with the AI, we know this, they are using a SFM, so we know why they are stronger, I just dont see as big an issue with killing an AI plane on my end, that isnt a knock against anyone.... just my observation....

Edited August 17, 2014 by NineLine

[NineLine]

:huh:

Explain why. Computers running algorithms do not lose count and they do not get distracted.

 

Let's not muddy the water just for the sake of playing devil's advocate.

 

 

I dont say that to muddy the waters, and I am not sure I appreciate you thinking I would do that. I was told by a dev that there might be an issue with how the info is displayed in relations to hits and such...

[gavagai]

I dont say that to muddy the waters, and I am not sure I appreciate you thinking I would do that. I was told by a dev that there might be an issue with how the info is displayed in relations to hits and such...

 

That is much better. I apologize for the remark.

 

Would tacview offer a better way to estimate the number of hits?

[fastfreddie]

I've had a few sub 2 minute kills now and this one was with about 30 rounds. I'm getting pretty good with headon attacks with the FW190 now but finished it with a deflection shot. Once you get the hang of the guns and tactics to employ with the FW190 its very easy to kill Ai.

sub2minutekill.trk

[otto]

I think SiThSpAwN might be right about issues with the post mission info.

It's just a gut feeling .I got kills in a split second and the cannon hits seem too many.

[otto]

Here's one of my tracks.

I practice vs friendly p51s.

d9-firing.trk

[DieHard]

The AI can take insane amounts of damage from most angles. It's like it has a forcefield on the back.

 

It goes down pretty easy from the front though.

 

To those with MP experience: how quickly do player controlled P-51 go down?

 

Rear attack, very close range, me in P-51, enemy a pretty good experienced combat sim-pilot shot me down quickly in MP on the Dogs of War server. One short burst did it. Why I say experienced, is the guy waited until he was close in for a good, effective, short burst and he flew with a wingman who did not engage but was covering him. I replayed the MP sortie using my TacView.

 

What is the drop rate of the FW-190's cannon, the arc of trajectory?

 

What is the effective range?

 

The more realistic aspect of playing on the Dogs of War MP server is there is no identifying icon to give the enemy con's position. Finding the enemy initially is not easy, all you have is the F1 view and no F10 map cheat. Once you see the guy, then keeping him constantly in view is not so easy, gotta' keep one's wits as to situational awareness. Some of the missions offered do entail including flak in enemy areas which is a bit of a cheat as to finding the enemy easier.

Edited August 18, 2014 by DieHard

[DieHard]

This is what I pumped into a P-51 AI and he still wouldn't go down. Not even after I rammed him.

 

I was using unlimited ammo.

 

 

 

This can't be right...

 

Flew this earlier today. AI in SP head to head.

 

P-51 vs AI Dora: ramming definitely does work effectively, me rear attack.

 

Same situation, before ramming, as I score hits I noticed in the SP replay that the Dora was slowing down losing performance as its hits accumulated. I have noticed this on other sorties.

 

I got too close, overshot, clipping his wing. He bailed. I dead-sticked it.

 

(Thinking of purchasing the FW-190. Came over to see what 1st beta pre-fix-up issues were being reported.)

[fastfreddie]

MG131

Muzzle velocity 750 m/s (2,500 ft/s)

Effective firing range 1,800 m (2,000 yd)

 

Not sure which MG151 is modeled but the listed stats are as follows.

Mg151

Effective range: 1000 m

Muzzle velocity: 850 m/s (AP-T); 960 m/s (HE-T, HEI-T); 1030 m/s AP(WC)

 

MG151/20

Effective range:800 m

Muzzle velocity: 805 m/s (M-Geschoss); 705 m/s (HE-T, AP)

 

So pretty much the max range is 800-1000 meters depending on the ammo. I will say that I believe the rounds in the DCS Dora will self destruct at a certain distance. Realistically the maximum shooting distance with 20mm is less than 500 yards if you really expect to hit anything and a prime shooting range of less than 300 yards to put alot of shells in a concentrated area.

 

I don't know the arc of trajectory but the 20mm rounds drop alot. Don't even use the green tracers as a guide if your worried about hitting with the 20s because it is quite different.

[Flagrum]

I don't know the arc of trajectory but the 20mm rounds drop alot. Don't even use the green tracers as a guide if your worried about hitting with the 20s because it is quite different.

trajectory & point of convergence - see here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2145193#post2145193

[fastfreddie]

I don't read German so what are they trying to show in the first graph. When both rounds meet in the trajectory? The second one I understand in that its the convergence but if you want all rounds to hit at the same altitude its 300m but they don't converge until 600m? Just don't understand why one starts at 20 and the other at 120 in the first graph.

[Flagrum]

I don't read German so what are they trying to show in the first graph. When both rounds meet in the trajectory? The second one I understand in that its the convergence but if you want all rounds to hit at the same altitude its 300m but they don't converge until 600m? Just don't understand why one starts at 20 and the other at 120 in the first graph.

The upper graph:

x-axis in meters

y-axis is the height above/below the sight line (0) in cm (0.01 meters). The muzzles of the 131 are ~ 17 cm below the sight line, the muzzles of the 151 ~ 117 cm below the sight line

 

The trajectories cross the sight line the first time at 25 meters after the muzzle for the 131 and after 135 meters for the 151.

 

The highest point of the trajectory is in both cases 80 cm above the sight line, that is after 260 meters for the 131 and 360 meters for the 151. (That is the cross point you were refering to)

 

The second crossing of the sight line happens for the 131 after 450 meters and for the 151 after 550 meters.

 

What is now the ideal range? As layman in this matter, I have difficulties to determine that ... 290 meters, where both trajectoryies have the same height above the sight line? Maybe, but that point is 80 cm higher than the sight line...

Or anything between 450 and 550 meters, where both trajectories cross the sight line and are also about near the ideal point of convergence? Probably this - even if the range does not exactly match the perfect convergence point, the trajectories are not really far off. The muzzles of the 151 are less than two meters apart anyways.

 

edit:

and somewhere in the range of 450 - 550 meters, the trajectories cross the sight line. Not at exatly the same distance, but they are probably not more than 80 cm apart. When the 131 trajectory meets the sight line, the 151 is 70 cm higher, when the 151 meets the sight line, the 131 is maybe 80 cm lower already. I would guess, "something" will hit in any case ... even if you aim "perfectly". :o)

 

edit2:

I would probably prefer to shoot at any distance shorter than 550 meters. After that, the bullet drop will be significantly increase (until you can't see them anymore when they fall below the aircrafts nose). But until 550 meters, any bullet on its trajectory has a maximum distance to the sight line of 80-90 cm (horizontally for the 151: distance wing-root to sight line; vertically for both: max. 80 cm above sight line). Maybe I would aim a tad bit low.

But again, this is only me as a layman and his theorisation :o)

 

edit3:

But the graph's "sight line" seems to be a fixed sight line. The big question for me now is, how (or if?) the EZ42 does this already take into account?

Edited August 19, 2014 by Flagrum

[PhoenixBvo]

Danke für das Visierdatenblatt Flagrum.

 

May I ask where you found it?

[Flagrum]

Danke für das Visierdatenblatt Flagrum.

 

May I ask where you found it?

It's part of the "Werkschrift 2190 D-9 Teil 8 A - Schusswaffenanlage". There were links to it posted here somewhere, but with google you might find it anyways.

[NineLine]

Couple things to keep in mind as well is dispersion, and the fact that it increases in the sim as the guns heat up or at least if you over heat them, so firing long bursts could also play into how much you are hitting your target...

[rinao0o]

Problem with the mg151 cannon

 

just finished a game which a p51 took 22 cannon hits - still having no trouble flying & maneuvering and was able to turn/climb with my dora

 

stats report

 

picture of the damaged p51

 

appearantly this is more like damage done by a shotgun, either the p51 dm is broken, or the mg151 is really really underpowered

 

is anyone having the same problem?

[Krupi]

There is a lot of complaints about the weak 20mm, but that is just ridiculous!

 

Main thread on the subject...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128419&page=10

[NineLine]

Just an FYI on this, I am not so sure that the number in brackets is the number of hits... it may be damage done....

[Python]

Just an FYI on this, I am not so sure that the number in brackets is the number of hits... it may be damage done....

 

Can we confirm this? I was wondering myself which it may be.

[NineLine]

Can we confirm this? I was wondering myself which it may be.

 

I have asked the question, but waiting on an answer, soon as I know I will let everyone know here...

[Python]

I have asked the question, but waiting on an answer, soon as I know I will let everyone know here...

 

Thank you. :thumbup:

[Flagrum]

Just an FYI on this, I am not so sure that the number in brackets is the number of hits... it may be damage done....

I doubt that it represents the damage (as in hit points) of the respective unit.

 

My understanding is that the number represents the number of identical messages that occured in a sequence at the same time. That means, DCS saw several events of the type "hit" occuring, but to reduce the size of the debrifing log, those are condensed for display.

 

(source: there was once a bug that caused some lag by this very "condensing" algorithm and this behavior was discussed)

 

What I can't say is, under which conditions exactly these identical events can happen in DCS. One way at least is that one weapon damages several units (i.e. one Mk-82 between two tanks --> each tank produces a "hit" event although it was only one bomb). If it is really possible - as we suspect here in this case - that one 20mm shell can cause more than one "hit" event on a single unit - I can not exactly say. Maybe one hit event per sub-system of the damage model? I don't know.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Flagrum