Cannon is weak

[NineLine]

I doubt that it represents the damage (as in hit points) of the respective unit.

 

My understanding is that the number represents the number of identical messages that occured in a sequence at the same time. That means, DCS saw several events of the type "hit" occuring, but to reduce the size of the debrifing log, those are condensed for display.

 

(source: there was once a bug that caused some lag by this very "condensing" algorithm and this behavior was discussed)

 

What I can't say is, under which condidtions exactly these identical events can happen in DCS. One way at least is that one weapon damages several units (i.e. one Mk-82 between two tanks --> each tank produces a "hit" event although it was only one bomb). If it is really possible - as we suspect here in this case - that one 20mm shell can cause more than one "hit" event on a single unit - I can not exactly say. Maybe one hit event per sub-system of the damage model? I don't know.

 

Yeah, I want to see it explained clearly once and for all so we can move forward with that knowledge... It cant be, least in my mind, the number of hits... just doesnt seem right...

[Bassly]

My top score would be 108x13mm and 52x20mm hits.

 

 

Then, I also get results like these:

 

 

Wouldn't say that cannons are too weak, but something else is bit off. Working as should be working? No.

So I guess time is the one what is needed here. One can wish.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Bassly

[nick10]

Argh!

 

Hit the p-51 with about 20 cannon shells and he not only kept flying, but came back to attack me.

 

In real life 3 or 4 20mm cannon shells would be enough to rip a small aircraft apart.

 

Please get on this DCS.

 

Cheers and love your work.

[fastfreddie]

They said that the DM will be looked at but don't judge the 20's against the AI. It's much easier to bring down player mustangs with hits to the engine. They need to do some work on the control surfaces of the wings and tail but otherwise the P51 player model is ok. Here is one video with engagements with 4 different Mustangs in one mission. Two go down very quickly and 2 take some work because they weren't perfect engagements.

 

[arthuro12]

~Inside the Ai's mind~

 

*Ai target gets peppered in the wings and tail*

 

"Oo boy the Player gave me a challenge today"

 

*re-adjusts, shifts to a different dimension and keeps on flying*

[NineLine]

Argh!

 

Hit the p-51 with about 20 cannon shells and he not only kept flying, but came back to attack me.

 

In real life 3 or 4 20mm cannon shells would be enough to rip a small aircraft apart.

 

Please get on this DCS.

 

Cheers and love your work.

 

So a couple things, I am not 100% convinced the briefing screen is accurate... I personally dont understand them at times, I have reported that they might not be accurate, and if they are, indeed the cannons are under powered or the Dora is over armoured.

 

Taking the briefing screen out, you have to ask yourself how accurate your shots are, even at say 800m behind the target, chances are all your rounds are not connecting with the target, now you can argue that even 3 or 4 cannon rounds should be enough, but again can you be 100% sure that your cannon shots are making critical hits. Its hard to say... the visual damage model can be misleading at times... most of the time.

 

I think there are issues... more so with the AI, but those might be attributed to other issues as well, the AI use simplified modelling... so I am guessing they are more of a hit points damage system than individual systems damage like a player airplane.

 

Anyways.. all that said, and I know there could be issues, I also know that I generally have little issue taking down an AI plane with the Dora. But it isnt instantaneous, it does take some practice...

[kripzoo]

The DCS World's current damage model simply sucks.

Even the old il2 46 DM beats 10-1 DCS's DM.

[NineLine]

The DCS World's current damage model simply sucks.

Even the old il2 46 DM beats 10-1 DCS's DM.

 

Nonsense....

[ZaltysZ]

even at say 800m behind the target, chances are all your rounds are not connecting with the target

 

Maybe one zero too many?

[arthuro12]

I like how folks state their somewhat exentric opinions without elaborating on it.

Agreed the 20mms are underpowered but the targets seem to take damage realisticly.. for me atleast.

 

It's more about the AIs reaction to that damage, they adapt to and manage the damage too well imo.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

im baffled by some of the comments here in this thread...

"cannons too weak", "damage model simply sucks"..."bla bla"...

 

how long do we have the dora now?what about actually trying to improve instead of complaining..i know that with training and once you are used to the 190's gunnery, the cannons are by no means too weak, regardless whether be it against AI or human flown P51s.if aimed correctly, then 1pass is enough to turn the mighty stang into a crippled pony aka "Leberkässemmel"

 

as for the damage model, while the graphical representation definitely needs some overhaul, which is confirmed by the devs btw, and while also the rest of the damage model certainly can be improved, to state that it " simply sucks" is really far from true and just rude. considering what the damage model is already capable of in regards of engine damage for example, most if not all other sims would have to reach such a level of detail yet...

[NineLine]

Maybe one zero too many?

 

If you want to see the whites of his eyes, sure... regardless, chances are most arent getting all their rounds on the target :)

[NineLine]

I like how folks state their somewhat exentric opinions without elaborating on it.

Agreed the 20mms are underpowered but the targets seem to take damage realisticly.. for me atleast.

 

It's more about the AIs reaction to that damage, they adapt to and manage the damage too well imo.

 

This is key, the AI is without fault, no matter how badly you hurt him, he will fly as perfect has they remaining aircraft will allow him, and in this case, with the AI being in more simplified model makes it so chances are his plane is near perfect but with less hit points...

[GaryIKILLYOU]

This is key, the AI is without fault, no matter how badly you hurt him, he will fly as perfect has they remaining aircraft will allow him, and in this case, with the AI being in more simplified model makes it so chances are his plane is near perfect but with less hit points...

So I guess the best sure-fire way to down the AI is to go for the pit? It feels dirty but it can be done.

[NineLine]

So I guess the best sure-fire way to down the AI is to go for the pit? It feels dirty but it can be done.

 

Dont worry, the AI has a good healthcare plan ;)

[ZaltysZ]

So I guess the best sure-fire way to down the AI is to go for the pit? It feels dirty but it can be done.

 

Sure way is to concentrate the fire and cause critical damage at single point.

[NineLine]

Sure way is to concentrate the fire and cause critical damage at single point.

 

Yup, even with the AI being an inhuman pilot, if you it the same spot as much as possible it will eventually break...

[kripzoo]

Nonsense....

 

Well yeah, basically i was speaking about the AI damage model:music_whistling:

And that thing simply sucks bad, the player DM is indeed much better/ more realistic...

 

And DavidRed, Trying to improve? we are not part of ED team and this "complaining" is the audience way to "improve" / make things better.

You know too by yourself, that the current AI damage is bad..

The pony should'nt be flying after 20 20mm hits.:)

Edited November 19, 2014 by kripzoo

[Haukka81]

Well yeah, basically i was speaking about the AI damage model:music_whistling:

And that thing simply sucks bad, the player DM is indeed much better/ more realistic...

 

And DavidRed, Trying to improve? we are not part of ED team and this "complaining" is the audience way to "improve" / make things better.

You know too by yourself, that the current AI damage is bad..

The pony should'nt be flying after 20 20mm hits.:)

 

+1

 

Nothing will improve if nobody won't say nothing :thumbup:

[NineLine]

Well yeah, basically i was speaking about the AI damage model:music_whistling:

And that thing simply sucks bad, the player DM is indeed much better/ more realistic...

 

And DavidRed, Trying to improve? we are not part of ED team and this "complaining" is the audience way to "improve" / make things better.

You know too by yourself, that the current AI damage is bad..

The pony should'nt be flying after 20 20mm hits.:)

 

I think the AI damage could be better, not sure its bad, it makes you work harder, I dont agree you are hitting the Mustang with 20 20mm hits... but without tracks and such who knows... I know I can take down the AI pretty easy most times.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Well yeah, basically i was speaking about the AI damage model:music_whistling:

And that thing simply sucks bad, the player DM is indeed much better/ more realistic...

 

And DavidRed, Trying to improve? we are not part of ED team and this "complaining" is the audience way to "improve" / make things better.

You know too by yourself, that the current AI damage is bad..

The pony should'nt be flying after 20 20mm hits.:)

 

im pretty sure that the stats you see at the debriefing screen are not correct, and i definitely wouldnt rely on them...and yes improve.with practice both player and AI planes go down in a second.

 

yes AI damage model as well as player damage model is not perfect, and improvements are always welcome....also critizism is definitely a good thing you are right, but comments like "damage model sucks" hardly will help

Edited November 19, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[fastfreddie]

I think the AI damage model has changed especially for the FW which is insanely easy to shot down now. Wings seem to be coming off the FW190 pretty easy and I've even seen the AI FW lose pieces of its tail(doesn't mean it changes anything). AI Mustang wings seem to be coming off in one good burst in most cases but its flight pattern isn't as realistic as the AI Dora. You rarely will see anyone flying the Mustang the way the AI does on the single mission which doesn't give you a true version of what to expect or practice for online. I don't think they are telling us about changes to the DM even though some seem apparent.

[NineLine]

I think the AI damage model has changed especially for the FW which is insanely easy to shot down now. Wings seem to be coming off the FW190 pretty easy and I've even seen the AI FW lose pieces of its tail(doesn't mean it changes anything). AI Mustang wings seem to be coming off in one good burst in most cases but its flight pattern isn't as realistic as the AI Dora. You rarely will see anyone flying the Mustang the way the AI does on the single mission which doesn't give you a true version of what to expect or practice for online. I don't think they are telling us about changes to the DM even though some seem apparent.

 

Or you have got better ;)

[kripzoo]

im pretty sure that the stats you see at the debriefing screen are not correct, and i definitely wouldnt rely on them...and yes improve.with practice both player and AI planes go down in a second.

 

yes AI damage model as well as player damage model is not perfect, and improvements are always welcome....also critizism is definitely a good thing you are right, but comments like "damage model sucks" hardly will help

 

How you know the debriefing stats are messed up?

I have done some "tests" and they seem to be kind accurate.

 

When i first time tested the FW190 againts a AI p51 and he took some hits both cannons and mg's , it started smokin and still he flew like the plane was never took any damage.

When i looked the debriefing stats i stopped counting after 10 cannon hits and thought never again against AI :megalol: (this was something like 3 months ago and have't played with dora since then)

 

There's lot of comments by people in this thread about "many registered cannon hits in the debriefing stats"

[Pilum]

Well in the same vein as I just posted an opinion in another thread that I think the DCS crosswind modeling should be aquitted because there is data supporting the current behaviour of what can best be termed as a reversed weathercock effect, I think the DM is guilty as charged:

 

Why? Because there has been a substantial gathering of data in tracks that show that you on AVERAGE need in the order of four to five times more hits to bring down an AI in DCS compared to the IRL statistical average. There is historic data indicating that about five 20 mm hits or twenty 50-cal hits were needed to bring down a fighter on AVERAGE.

 

So no one is saying that every time you hit with this number the enemy should go down but if you collect a large number of tracks that all indicate that an AVERAGE that is four to five times higher than the historical AVERAGE is needed then STATISTICALLY the model is off.

 

Or course this is just another opinion but I would say this one happens to be based on evidence so in this particular case I support an overhaul of the DM which IMHO is guilty as charged.

 

Finally, it will be very interesting to see how the Mk108 in the Me109K4 will fare on this point when it is released in DCS because on AVERAGE you should only need to hit with only one 30 mm shell to bring down a fighter.

 

The continuous allegations about gunnary accuracy that people that point this weakness out receive is moot and pretty lame IMHO: The question at hand is the number of hits needed not the accuracy. If you are a good shot you can reach the level of hits needed quicker that's all. The problem at hand is how many hits are needed. Taking the conversation in this direction is just a smokescreen obscuring the real problem.

 

And yes, I have seen the excuses that the hit count "could" be showing something other than what is stated and yes, different types of shells have different damage potential when hitting in different places and this could explain some deviations but if you STATISTICALLY in most cases need four to five times as many shells as historical sources would suggest then something is definitely off.