Anyone help out with this warthog footage?

[CookPassBabtridge]

Hi all

 

I am new to A-10C and flying in general, and am slowly getting into how to fly and the basics. Its an amazing sim and the bug has bitten hard, enough to get me to splash out on stick / throttle / MFD's etc. I am taking my time and want to learn how to do things right before jumping into campaign or online. Its like savouring a long, satisfying meal :) All the avionics and weapons systems are cool and all, but I want to feel like I really know how to fly the warthog, or be as good as I can be at least.

 

I am hoping you guys can help me out with the following video. I have watched it a few times and am amazed every time I see it:

 

(Tried to embed but kept coming up as "error")

 

So, the questions, again flight maneuver oriented:

 

1. Right at the start, and throughout the video, just after dropping his bombs he does that very quick jerk-up pitch maneuver. He seems to be going dead slow, and then just BAM - pitches up and takes off. Can the sim do this, and if so what are you doing with stick and throttle? Does it have anything to do with the stuttering sound from the engine, or is that just a sound artefact?

 

2. At 1:33, the commentator says "Captain Shedderley is now performing a *SOMETHING* Maneuver", and then he pulls off something awesome. What is the word he is saying, and again how on earth does a normal human being perform one of these? :joystick: :)

 

3. Finally, at 2:23, I am blown away by the accuracy of those rolls that just start and stop on a penny. Is it careful balancing of stick and rudder, and if so, anyone (again) know how its done?

 

In case you're wondering, that's me down in the comments of the video fruitlessly asking some the same questions, though Mr Bruce kindly takes a shot at answering the pitch-up question :D

 

Cheers all, maybe see you on an MP server sometime when I work up the gumption to try my skills with the big boys :lookaround:

CPB

Edited August 13, 2014 by CookPassBabtridge

[SkateZilla]

Angle and Filming Perspective/FoV make the Appearance of speed in that video, especially when flying away, seem very low.

[txmtb]

I believe the announcer said Jinkout Maneuver.

 

Jinkout Maneuver

 

Unpredictable maneuvers to negate a gun tracking solution. A series of changes in roll, pitch, and G performed to prevent an attacker from achieving a gun tracking solution. This maneuver will not be effective against missiles.

[CookPassBabtridge]

Angle and Filming Perspective/FoV make the Appearance of speed in that video, especially when flying away, seem very low.

 

Thanks SkateZilla, I see what you mean.

[CookPassBabtridge]

I believe the announcer said Jinkout Maneuver.

 

:thumbup: Eeeexcellent, that has been driving me mad for ages! Do you know is there 'one' jinkout maneuver, or several? Ahh that is such a relief to finally find out what he was saying!

[txmtb]

Don't think there is a standard maneuver as it would depend on where the threat is, terrain, etc...

Edited August 13, 2014 by txmtb

[Blooze]

When you get ready for some multiplayer action click on my sig for something that may be of interest.

[FSKRipper]

As Skate mentioned this is called jink out but this is the "light" version flown at airshows to stay close to the public. I don't know if there are still tv recordings out there from the 90's in Kosovo. There you can see A-10 flying high G maneuvers to evade possible AAA and manpads continously dropping flares. As many A-10 tutorials in this forum also say (for low altitude runs):

 

1. Attack and break, never overfly your target. Dispense flares.

2. Don't fly a course for more than one second, especially with radar guided AAA in the target area

3. Use 3 dimensions, don't just jink left and right

Edited August 13, 2014 by FSKRipper

[Snoopy]

 

1. Right at the start, and throughout the video, just after dropping his bombs he does that very quick jerk-up pitch maneuver. He seems to be going dead slow, and then just BAM - pitches up and takes off. Can the sim do this, and if so what are you doing with stick and throttle? Does it have anything to do with the stuttering sound from the engine, or is that just a sound artefact?

 

 

Safe Escape Maneuver (Turn Level Turn)

[Yurgon]

I am hoping you guys can help me out with the following video. I have watched it a few times and am amazed every time I see it:

 

A word of caution regarding that video: First, it's an airshow display, so it's supposed to look good for the crowd. It surely borrows from real world tactics, but if you engage anything more dangerous than a soldier AK-47 like this in DCS, it's a sure way to get a lot of unauthorized 23mm holes installed. :)

 

Second, the A-10 in that video is as clean as they get. As far as I know, for demo aircraft like this they remove most of the pylons and even the chaff and flare dispensers. The performance regarding climb- and roll-rate is not comparable to even an unloaded A-10C in DCS because that one has still got all the pylons and the dispensers.

 

It's quite possible to perform somewhat alike in DCS, just don't get disappointed when you can't fly exactly as seen in the video.

 

Besides, demo-pilots are usually very experienced pilots, so these guys know exactly what they do and how they can push the aircraft to the limit.

 

Can the sim do this, and if so what are you doing with stick and throttle? Does it have anything to do with the stuttering sound from the engine, or is that just a sound artefact?

 

I think that sound comes from the explosives that simulate the impact of cannon rounds and has nothing to do with the engines.

 

Just pull back quickly on the stick, but not too far or you're likely to lose control of the Hog. With a bit of practice, something like that should be quite possible in DCS A-10C.

 

The A-10 is slow enough as it is. I don't think it's necessary to reduce throttle for this type of maneuver. Besides, the engines take some time to react to the throttle. I don't hear them spooling down or up around these pitch up maneuvers, so I think it's really just a violent pulling back on the stick.

 

2. At 1:33, the commentator says "Captain Shedderley is now performing a *SOMETHING* Maneuver", and then he pulls off something awesome. What is the word he is saying, and again how on earth does a normal human being perform one of these? :joystick: :)

 

I agree with the others, it's a jinkout maneuver (or "jink-out" or "jink out"?).

 

3. Finally, at 2:23, I am blown away by the accuracy of those rolls that just start and stop on a penny. Is it careful balancing of stick and rudder, and if so, anyone (again) know how its done?

 

I'd say it's a so called 4-point roll, and it takes a lot of practice to make it look as good as in that video. Other types of rolls that are very much airshow compatible are 8-point rolls and even 16-point rolls. I haven't been to an airshow in a long time and don't know how common these are, but it's something that you're not likely to see in combat, it's just for show. And again, these pilots know exactly what they're doing. I can fly a 4-point roll, but the total amount of rolling hardly ever sums up to 360 degrees when I try it. Like I said, it takes a lot of practice. :D

[Koldkillr]

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3_5/publication/afi11-246v1/afi11-246v1.pdf

 

this has info on what he did in the airshow. And it is called the Jink-out

[CookPassBabtridge]

WOW what can I say? I am totally bowled over by all your responses! So much info and useful tips. Thanks so much guys :)

 

@ tmxtb - thanks man. I guess the basic idea that you should just be making life as hard for gunners as possible?

 

@ Blooze - I may well do that, thanks a lot! I like the sound of taking part in MP missions, though I have a lot to learn!

 

@ FSKRipper - thanks for the advice, its all good practical stuff. I do wonder though, how the hell do you balance not keeping on one path, with actually lining up e.g. a gun run? Does your final run-in at least not have to be straight? Makes me appreciate the skill of these pilots all the more.... additionally, is it usual for a pilot to use pitch down in a jinkout? I notice that pilots will usually favour rolling in, I assume for the positive G?

 

@paulrkii - thanks, I guess that is the maneuver you find in the the DSMS profile for the bombs?

 

@ Yurgon - imma make a separate post to reply to you :D

 

@ USMC_Trev - I think I am going to need to velcro my joystick down :) I tried some snap movements and it keeps trying to hurl my keyboard off the table top! I would say getting accurate rolls is my biggest learning curve at the moment. I don;t know how much my lowish frame rate (30FPS) affects it, but I find it hard to time stopping a roll and always tend to "miss" the horizon. Practice ....

 

@ Koldkillr - this has my mind blown, thanks so much for digging that out its amazing. Literally a blow by blow and how to of each maneuver, exactly what I was looking for :) Is there a repository online for those things or is it from your "personal stash"? :)

 

Anyways thanks all, reps all round for you fine gentlemen

[CookPassBabtridge]

A word of caution regarding that video: First, it's an airshow display, so it's supposed to look good for the crowd. It surely borrows from real world tactics, but if you engage anything more dangerous than a soldier AK-47 like this in DCS, it's a sure way to get a lot of unauthorized 23mm holes installed. :)

 

Is that simply because of altitude and speed? It would be good to know tactically what is bad about it :)

 

Second, the A-10 in that video is as clean as they get. As far as I know, for demo aircraft like this they remove most of the pylons and even the chaff and flare dispensers. The performance regarding climb- and roll-rate is not comparable to even an unloaded A-10C in DCS because that one has still got all the pylons and the dispensers.

 

It's quite possible to perform somewhat alike in DCS, just don't get disappointed when you can't fly exactly as seen in the video.

 

Besides, demo-pilots are usually very experienced pilots, so these guys know exactly what they do and how they can push the aircraft to the limit...

 

Just pull back quickly on the stick, but not too far or you're likely to lose control of the Hog. With a bit of practice, something like that should be quite possible in DCS A-10C.

 

The A-10 is slow enough as it is. I don't think it's necessary to reduce throttle for this type of maneuver. Besides, the engines take some time to react to the throttle. I don't hear them spooling down or up around these pitch up maneuvers, so I think it's really just a violent pulling back on the stick.

 

Yeah I think its going to take a lot of practice. The document that Koldkillr linked to has a blow by blow of how to do each thing, and mentions a maximum performance pitch maneuver, which I guess will change depending on load. My task is to figure out how that translates into stick movement?

 

 

I'd say it's a so called 4-point roll, and it takes a lot of practice to make it look as good as in that video. Other types of rolls that are very much airshow compatible are 8-point rolls and even 16-point rolls. I haven't been to an airshow in a long time and don't know how common these are, but it's something that you're not likely to see in combat, it's just for show. And again, these pilots know exactly what they're doing. I can fly a 4-point roll, but the total amount of rolling hardly ever sums up to 360 degrees when I try it. Like I said, it takes a lot of practice. :D

 

MAKE A VIDEO! :D J/K Seriously though I would love to have that level of skill. Even if you know you will never use it in combat, that degree of dexterity must be one hell of a 'transferable skill'!

 

Thanks for such a lot of good input, its really appreciated!

[Yurgon]

Is that simply because of altitude and speed? It would be good to know tactically what is bad about it :)

 

The entire engagement was flown in close proximity to the target area and the aircraft flew really low. That would make it rather easy for gunners to anticipate the approach path and get lots of rounds in the A-10s direction even without radar guidance.

 

If you're interested in real world tactics and employments, I recommend both of these books:

- A-10s Over Kosovo (also available as PDF from the USAF website)

- Warthog: Flying the A-10 in the Gulf War

 

Basically, medium and long range air-defenses use radar and can be easily detected. In an asymmetric conflict with air superiority on the US-side, these types of air-defenses aren't the A-10s primary concern.

 

It's when the Hogs get low that they come within range of short range air defenses like the ZSU-23 Shilka and of course man portable anti aircraft missiles like Stinger or Igla, to name just a few common threats. In such a conflict, the safest way to attack ground targets is to drop guided munitions from up high (I'd say 15,000 ft or above).

 

"Warthog" describes how the pilots had to get used to flying high during Desert Storm, because prior to that they'd all trained for low level tank busting in the European battlefield -- but there was no terrain to speak of in Iraq that they could have used as cover, so they had to fly high and rely on allied assets to protect them from the medium and long range SAMs.

 

Over Kosovo, they were required by the Rules of Engagement to fly high in order to protect them from short range ground threats, even if that meant that they had a much harder time finding targets from such a high altitude. The hard deck limit was adjusted several times during the conflict, AFAIK it finally went down to 10,000 ft - still way higher than the entire display in the video. :)

 

In my experience, most missions in DCS feature short range air defenses around the mission targets, and therefore flying low will get a pilot within range of these systems whereas flying high means safety.

 

The A-10 can come down low and do a lot of damage with that awesome gun, but in most cases that's not the most efficient way to destroy targets as it puts the plane and the pilot at risk.

 

Such types of attacks are more common in Close Air Support scenarios like in Afghanistan where the Taliban have very limited access to air defense systems, and gun runs can be a huge help in order to assist allied ground troops.

 

What I'm trying to say is: Pick the right weapon for the job. :thumbup:

 

Coming back to the air show video: If there had been a ZSU-23 within, say, 2 nm of the target area, it would have been a serious threat to the A-10. Unless you know for sure that there is no such threat, you should always assume that there is.

 

My task is to figure out how that translates into stick movement?

 

I haven't looked at the document yet, but I'd say just try it out. Maybe start with a lightly loaded aircraft and once you feel confident, try with a combat load.

 

MAKE A VIDEO! :D J/K Seriously though I would love to have that level of skill. Even if you know you will never use it in combat, that degree of dexterity must be one hell of a 'transferable skill'!

 

Yeah, I think I'll invest some time on how to make a video of DCS flights. So far I haven't bothered, but unfortunately track playback is so damn unreliable that I want to be able to create videos from my flights.

 

Slightly off topic, but my main reason for wanting to create a video is to be able to look back at the first flights in a new aircraft. For instance the Huey flight model was heavily tweaked within a short time of the first beta release. I still have the tracks, but I can't play them anymore in DCS, so it's as if they're lost. :( Don't want that to happen in the future.

 

But I'm not there yet. If I get to create videos anytime soon, I'll be sure to post my attempts at 4-point rolls. :)

 

Thanks for such a lot of good input, its really appreciated!

 

Hey, thanks for the kind words. :)

[Pinefang]

Regarding the precision of the roll maneuver, a lot of people mistakenly think that flying and maneuvering on an exact course is a lot of luck but any pilot will tell you that flying is a learned precision skill. That pilot already knew what course and altitude that he was going to end the maneuver in before he even started the maneuver. That is how you learn to fly airplanes.

[CookPassBabtridge]

Regarding the precision of the roll maneuver, a lot of people mistakenly think that flying and maneuvering on an exact course is a lot of luck but any pilot will tell you that flying is a learned precision skill. That pilot already knew what course and altitude that he was going to end the maneuver in before he even started the maneuver. That is how you learn to fly airplanes.

 

Hi Pinefang,

 

Yeah this is exactly what I am after. Something that I have been trying to master is nice clean aileron rolls and roll ins on target for the GAU. I notice that even though the A-10 has SAS, if I apply rudder during the roll, let the stick go back to central, and THEN release the rudder, I get no "nose wobble" and it points happily where I want it. I know some folk say Yaw SAS is a bit like an auto rudder, and admittedly there's probably a ton of other things I am doing wrong with the stick, but at least from my experiments the hog seems to like a bit of gentle rudder input in rolling.

[CookPassBabtridge]

@ Yurgon

 

Many thanks for those links, I have downloaded that PDF. My paper copy of the A-10 flight manual showed up yesterday so I will add it to the reading material pile :book:

 

It sounds like there is a lot of tactical depth and whys and wherefores of weapon selection. I did not realise that different conflicts called for different employment regimes, and most of the videos I have seen focus on the hog's gun as though its the main thing about it. I need to do some more reading up on when you would choose to use it ("I wasted my bombs and mavericks making holes in buildings" being one? :) ). Regarding the terrain in Iraq, would the "pop up" maneuver have been considered ill-advised also? I usually see this being employed over flat but with tree cover, and often think "what if there was AA in the tree line" ... wide open spaces would also give the AA nowhere to hide.

 

But yeah it would be cool to see your A-10 videos, especially ones that showcase flying. Matt Wagner from ED has a channel and I love watching his flying on there. Bunyap from these here forums also shows off some natty air skills and an amazing wealth of knowledge (also, dat sabre). My subs list is getting looong.

 

EDIT: I would rep you again for being virtually encyclopaedic, but the forum won't let me :D

[Yurgon]

Many thanks for those links, I have downloaded that PDF. My paper copy of the A-10 flight manual showed up yesterday so I will add it to the reading material pile :book:

 

Yeah, DCS involves lots of reading. On the other hand, I consider the manual a reference rather than a guide. Some people study it in much detail, but I always found it much easier to look at YouTube videos and learn visually. There are so many excellent tutorials out there, it's a great way to learn stuff. :thumbup:

 

It sounds like there is a lot of tactical depth and whys and wherefores of weapon selection. I did not realise that different conflicts called for different employment regimes, and most of the videos I have seen focus on the hog's gun as though its the main thing about it. I need to do some more reading up on when you would choose to use it ("I wasted my bombs and mavericks making holes in buildings" being one? :) ).

 

The gun looks and sounds amazing in videos. :)

 

Plus, gun runs can be filmed from the ground, whereas dropping a bomb from 22,000 ft is hardly visible for ground observers, and even if a good camera could capture it, it just doesn't look and sound as sexy as the GAU-8 :D

 

On topic of selecting the right weapon for the job: If I have a weapon that can reach and destroy the target while keeping me perfectly safe, I would always prefer that over a sexy gun run. Guided bombs and Mavericks are great for that purpose.

 

In order to crack a tanks armor, you need to get pretty close with the gun. IIRC it's preferred to open up at 1.5 nm and turn off target no less than 0.8 nm. There's just no way to stay out of the range of MANPADs and AAA on such a gun run, and it's usually safe to assume that tanks will be protected by both. Depending on how urgent it is to destroy a specific tank, if I run out of bombs and Mavs I'd rather RTB, grab a fresh load of weapons and come back to finish the job instead of getting my behind handed to me by the enemy.

 

Well... that's the way I'd do it today -- because I've flown gun runs on tanks way too often and it never turned out to be a wise choice. :music_whistling: :D

 

Regarding the terrain in Iraq, would the "pop up" maneuver have been considered ill-advised also? I usually see this being employed over flat but with tree cover, and often think "what if there was AA in the tree line" ... wide open spaces would also give the AA nowhere to hide.

 

I think it depends on the terrain, the mission profile, the target etcetera, so there's probably not *the* one definitive answer to that.

 

Flying low just means that a Hog (or whatever aircraft) is potentially in range of any short range air defense system. In case of MANPADs, it could be a soldier hiding in a ravine or some kind of tunnel, maybe even just under a blanket, getting ready to fire a missile within a few seconds of an aircraft passing overhead. Altitude is a safe way to get out of the range of such threats, so any pilot would need a damn good reason to go down low.

 

One such reason is to use terrain cover against medium and long range air defense systems, which brings us back to the WW III over Europe scenario where this was considered to be a valid trade-off.

 

The cool thing in DCS is that you can easily design missions to include any (or none) of these threats. With a bit of randomization, you could make it so that even as the mission designer you would never know which of the threats placed in the mission will be active. I fear that this discussion is getting a bit too far on the theoretical side, and I'm also no expert on the matter, I can just talk from the perspective of having read the aforementioned books and getting shot down a lot in DCS. :)

 

What I'm trying to say is, try different things and see how they work for you.

 

My experience is that low altitude is a sure way to get shot sooner rather than later whereas flying high keeps me safe. But with a few long range SAMs on the other side, things would look differently, so the right choice always depends on the situation.

 

EDIT: I would rep you again for being virtually encyclopaedic, but the forum won't let me :D

 

:)

 

There are guys a lot more encyclopedic around here, I guess if I'd written total bull**** so far they would've already corrected me. :)

 

But seriously, just grab a Hog, fly lots of missions and see which tactics work and which tactics don't. I think that's the best way to learn about it. :thumbup:

 

Huh. And here I thought I'd just type a quick reply... :D

[JayPee]

Anyone help out with this warthog footage?

 

I haven't read all replies so pardon me if it's asked before. Why does the pilot -during the climbing part of the SEM- roll 270 degrees into the direction he will be breaking away instead of a simple 90 degree bank? During this manoeuvre he doesn't really (at least to me) jink or change his path, he just makes a perfect 270 degree roll along his longitudal axis.

 

Is it perhaps to confuse an AAA gunner and not reveal the direction into which he will ultimately break away too early on?

Edited August 17, 2014 by JayPee

[CookPassBabtridge]

I haven't read all replies so pardon me if it's asked before. Why does the pilot -during the climbing part of the SEM- roll 270 degrees into the direction he will be breaking away instead of a simple 90 degree bank? During this manoeuvre he doesn't really (at least to me) jink or change his path, he just makes a perfect 270 degree roll along his longitudal axis.

 

Is it perhaps to confuse an AAA gunner and not reveal the direction into which he will ultimately break away too early on?

 

I'm sure others here will give a more detailed response, but judging by the general theme of the replies I would imagine that "because it looks good" was a large part of it. The climbing maneuver looks better from the side than a horizontal maneuver, giving a better impression of speed?

 

Its a cool video though. Captain Shedderley fanclub anyone? :notworthy:

[Yurgon]

[...] judging by the general theme of the replies I would imagine that "because it looks good" was a large part of it.

 

That would indeed be my guess. :)

[GripenNG]

Some Jink maneuvers from the 476th vFG Youtube channel:

 

 

 

 

 

[CookPassBabtridge]

:eek:

 

Just when I thought the epicosity of the responses had reached a natural inflexion, the thread goes exponential :yay: Thanks so much for posting those. Was the pilot in the nellis AFB video doing a combination of all of those? It must be very difficult to fly the aircraft like that, looks like its protesting quite a lot!

 

In fact I was just about to ask how close to the stall you were in those pitch-up maneuvers, and then heard the warning in the background of some.

 

I was learning about maximum sustained turning performance here http://kriegsimulation.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/dcs-10c-warthog-210-kias-speed-to.html just recently. I wonder if maximum pitch-up performance is similarly governed?

 

Thanks again, that's another one for my subs list :)

Edited August 17, 2014 by CookPassBabtridge

[marluk]

This is really interesTing thread. I'm in learning process too. Anyhow I think that DCS is all about learning anyway.

I have found some popular readings that might be usefull

IN PURSUIT A Pilot's Guide to Online Air Combat

Fighter combat tactics and maneuvering, Shaw

 

Sorry I'm unable to post links now, but Google will help :)

[Yurgon]

I was learning about maximum sustained turning performance here http://kriegsimulation.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/dcs-10c-warthog-210-kias-speed-to.html just recently.

 

Oh wow, great post there! Just as someone says in the comments, there's something new to learn every day. :thumbup: