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Is the aim-54 even avoidable?


rami80

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So I'm trying the attached mission in the file while assuming I don't know I have a f-14 coming my way. The only thing I get hear is the radar warning me that I am being scanned(no lock, or incoming missile) once the missile gets really close the radar changes to an incoming missile warning. It seems when the aim-54 is that close neither notching or doing an orthogonal roll will help dodge it(while using chaff of course).

 

I turned off the ecm because I thought it might have HOJ. I tried pulling up assuming it would not have enough energy to follow because the AI fires the second the mission begins, but pressing f6 shows its still moving at mach1+ . :helpsmilie:

 

I was only able to dodge it once by notching, but it seems to fail every time now.

 

Edit: If you decide to load the mission, make sure you set the AI's skill level to excellent otherwise it might now even bother holding the lock.

abBVR - F14 x1.miz


Edited by rami80
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I have watched the video, but it seems the mechanics have changed. The missile turns much faster and I only get a radar warning when the missile becomes very close. I do not even get a radar lock warning. I have attached the mission if you would like to try it.

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My attempt (hope it recorded correctly)

 

The AIM-54 has suspiciously low induced drag compared to player controlled missiles, so it barely slows down when maneuvering. It doesn't seem to be able to pull much g though.

Su-27 vs F-14.trk

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the -54 was designed for bombers/fleet defense

 

its an aging missile that is decent, but against modern fighter targets isn't the silver bullet you may imagine

 

on paper, its one thing - but in real life, a lot of factors come in to play

 

of course, with the retirement of the f-14, its not in service any longer..

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Exorcet , turning at high g seems to work 3/2 it just misses when that is done, nevertheless it is a new technique which I highly thank you for teaching me:D. What I can't get my head around is why doesn't the lock break when a standard notch is done, seems it might need tweaking.

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Still in service in Iran, I heard they're still upgrading it alongside their F-14's.

Despite its size, that's one missile to watch out for (plenty of energy). The A version seems to have scored numerous kills on Iraqi fighters during the Iran/Irak conflict.

 

To answer this topic's question - yes you can defeat it but you'll have to work harder than against other missiles. The AI will usually fire from far away and wont fire a second one unless the first one misses. Best tactic would be to defend early (assume early TWS shot) by forcing the missile to bleed off the energy, so when you reverse once it gets close enough, it won't be able to follow you. This is just one way to do it, there are many other tactics.

Waiting until 'Pitbull' to start defending is the wrong way to do it.

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Sorry for the dumb questions but assuming I see the initial smoke and deduce a missile was fired. How do I force it to bleed of the energy? Can you point me to a list of tactics if one exists?

 

The other way I've forced it to miss besides a high g turn is by diving sharply when the smoke trail ends(i.e. when it does not generate any more energy, is that pitbull?) then climbing back up. When I change to its view it starts climbing but runs out of energy and dives to the ground.

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Been there, done that.

 

In my experience, the only way to consistently defeat the Phoenix is Ironhand's tactics against Aim-120 with a slight modification. In case you have no idea what I am talking about, watch this:

 

In order to defeat the Phoenix, you'll need to turn your nose slightly away from the oncoming radar and pitch down slightly as early as possible - either from the moment your RWS detects a radar signal, or the moment you see a missile track coming at you from very far away (>75 km), which is the signature of a Phoenix launching. Do not wait until the radar on board the missile locks onto you. That as far as I can recall is a very dangerous thing to do. The rest is the same as shiwn in Ironhand's tutorial.


Edited by blackbelter
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The MiG-31's R-33 is also way difficult to avoid. What I'd suggest is that you just deny them the long shot. Basically turn away or notch immediately and spool ECM. AI doesn't fire HOJ any more and will have to wait until burn through. That leaves you free to close the gap and engage accordingly. That at least works very well in the F-15 mission versus the MiG-31s.

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Those who are suggesting the tactics of avoiding the aim-54 only work till FC2.

 

Can anyone show how to avoid it with the same tactics and suggestions in DCS World ? because it needs tweaking.

 

What the author of this thread is trying to ask:

 

1. When f14 locks and fire why didn't we get the launch warning ?

2. The missile doesn't sweat to bleed off speed and maintains homing lock like its wants to be a AIM-120C !

3. And even we get the warning we don't have time to pull high G's with a missile so agile and near to you with a Mach 2 speed :).

 

Yep, its a bug that needs to be fixed. And yes, I really want to see someone avoid it without using external views in DCS World.


Edited by FlankerNation
Forgot something
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Those who are suggesting the tactics of avoiding the aim-54 only work till FC2.

 

I cannot speak for others, but what I recommended I learned in DCS 1.2.7.

 

But it's true that some video tutorials about avoiding aim-54 on youtube do not work well in DCS. They probably only work in LOFC.

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Yep, its a bug that needs to be fixed. And yes, I really want to see someone avoid it without using external views in DCS World.

Mission accepted. :)

 

I've just flown the mission and I obviously started defensive actions immediately after all it was clearly either an F-14 or MiG-33 because of the range/radar strength. He only fired 1 AIM-54 at me and then chose to try AIM-7, i'm guessing he didn't like my noobish tactics.

 

He was fairly easy to kill like this so for the 3rd track I removed his AIM-7s and left him with 54s and 9s. The final AIM-54 did run extremely close but the inevitable F-14 splash win-win for Mother Russia was the final result. :D

Su27vF-14.trk

Su27vF-14 2.trk

Su27vF-14 3_no aim7.trk

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1. When f14 locks and fire why didn't we get the launch warning ?

TWS, no bug.

 

2. The missile doesn't sweat to bleed off speed and maintains homing lock like its wants to be a AIM-120C !
The AIM-54 is way better than the AIM-120 at retaining energy, in game anyway. May just be to due to SFM model, in which case it's not really a bug.

 

3. And even we get the warning we don't have time to pull high G's with a missile so agile and near to you with a Mach 2 speed :).

I did it just now. The missile peaked about ~7g. The Su-27 can pull 9, with full fuel I out turned it. So long as you pull more than the missile's max g it won't be able to lead you.

 

I really want to see someone avoid it without using external views in DCS World.
My track was flown fully in cockpit.

 

 

 

Exorcet , turning at high g seems to work 3/2 it just misses when that is done, nevertheless it is a new technique which I highly thank you for teaching mebiggrin.gif. What I can't get my head around is why doesn't the lock break when a standard notch is done, seems it might need tweaking.

 

The F-14's or the AIM-54's lock? I'm not sure. Maybe you just did not line up precisely enough? The Su-27's RWR doesn't have the most accurate threat bearings. If you want to experiment breaking the lock, try slowing down heavily while notching. This way even if you're not exactly 90 degrees off the F-14/AIM-54 your relative velocity to them will be very small. I wouldn't do this in actual combat, but you can try it for testing purposes.


Edited by Exorcet

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Sorry for the dumb questions but assuming I see the initial smoke and deduce a missile was fired. How do I force it to bleed of the energy? Can you point me to a list of tactics if one exists?

 

The other way I've forced it to miss besides a high g turn is by diving sharply when the smoke trail ends(i.e. when it does not generate any more energy, is that pitbull?) then climbing back up. When I change to its view it starts climbing but runs out of energy and dives to the ground.

 

Indeed, diving then climbing back up if well timed can be very effective.

But there are other tactics, example here: http://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2013/08/17/evading-air-to-air-missile/

 

'Pitbull' refers to a tracking terminal stage where the missile disconnects from the platform's radar and switches to its own on-board radar. Your RWR will start screaming and counting down to impact. You should use this to time your last pull, supposed to submit the missile.

 

Don't rely too much on spotting smoke trails to detect a launch. Like Frostie said, by comparing the range/radar strength, you can identify an interceptor (F-14/MiG-31), assume a long range TWS shot (F-14) and start defending right away.

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Indeed, diving then climbing back up if well timed can be very effective.

But there are other tactics, example here: http://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2013/08/17/evading-air-to-air-missile/

I think that article can be a little misleading. The bit on turning radius specifically. The missile isn't going try to match your turn radius because it doesn't have to. It will match your acceleration (g) which it can do very easily.

 

From the missile's point of the view, the target is maneuvering on a quasi 2D plane in front of it. It can accelerate in any direction at the plane's max g (usually 9 g). For the missile to intercept the 2D dot, it only needs to pull 9 g of its own. The turn radius doesn't matter.

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Kind of interesting to see my old V1.x tutorials cited. :) Thank you. Decided to brush off my stick and give the mission a try myself. Here's the result: Su-27 v AIM-54_Ironhand.zip.

 

Don't really know what the contrail was but I didn't like my speed for the altitude I was at. I also wanted to close the range as quickly as possible. So I picked that up and waited. Didn't pull through the turn the quite the way I wanted (still haven't calibrated my stick) but, evidently, it was good enough because I survived.

 

 

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That's right, turn radius is somewhat irrelevant so long as you're not in some sort of r-min condition.

 

The real issues are max g available to the missile (IIRC in the case of the AIM-54 it's 15), the speed of the missile, and g the target is pulling, seeker setting and other seeker issues.

 

But for kinematics alone, what you said isn't quite right. These missiles use PN, with N = 3 or 5 usually. This means if you pull 9g, the missile will try to pull 27. The AIM-54 doesn't have the ability to do this, though it might come down so fast that you just won't have time (or timing) to do anything about it. The missile has an easier time with an established maneuver instead of a sudden out-of-plane maneuver.

 

 

I think that article can be a little misleading. The bit on turning radius specifically. The missile isn't going try to match your turn radius because it doesn't have to. It will match your acceleration (g) which it can do very easily.

 

From the missile's point of the view, the target is maneuvering on a quasi 2D plane in front of it. It can accelerate in any direction at the plane's max g (usually 9 g). For the missile to intercept the 2D dot, it only needs to pull 9 g of its own. The turn radius doesn't matter.

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According to a fellow online military aviation enthusiast, "the original flight profile called for a parabolic trajectory after launch with the apogee somewhere in the lower mesosphere for long-range targets."

 

Does this sound correct? I'm unfamiliar with the Phoenix.

Yes, it sounds like a smart ass way of saying long range shots loft and then dive on their targets. But it has very little to do with the topic, avoiding them.

"[51☭] FROSTIE" #55

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There are a lot of interesting AIM-54 trajectories, and we don't know which ones are used. Certainly for the longest ranged shots, this type of trajectory is required and the AIM-54 might pass 100000' in altitude at the apex of its trajectory ... does it actually do so? Don't know.

 

The NASA one does, but the NASA one isn't a combat vehicle.

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Interesting question, but I think the issue was with RWRs 'back then'. A missile gliding down to target out-of-loft would still have better chances of hitting if it used a reasonable glide-path to the target, maybe less than 10 degrees. Just pure speculation on my part though.

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