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Takeoff and gear dynamic seem off.


Buznee

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From all the takeoff videos I've seen of the leatherneck simulation, it seems that the aircraft is quite jittery on the ground. From outside view there is excessive amount of oleo travel of the gear and there is lots of lateral (roll) jitter when approaching rotation speed. At some points +-10 degrees! Does not seem to be in agreement with many real Mig-21 takeoff videos. Most videos show the mig-21 taking off very smoothly with minimal jitter and oleo movement.

 

Here are some examples.

 

Croation Airforce Mig-21 Takeoff

 

Wings of the Red Star Mig-21, great onboard shot from below the gear on takeoff. minute 30:20

Thoughts?

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You can't tell the difference from the outside because of point of reference. If you're outside of a jet rolling down a runway thats a little bumpy you'd never notice the difference. Being inside at the controls, however, you would feel and see the effects of a bumpy runway. Are they a little exaggerated sure but, who knows how bumpy they are.

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the more you murmur... the more our kids get a chance to fly this damn thing and we don't :(

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You can't tell the difference from the outside because of point of reference. If you're outside of a jet rolling down a runway thats a little bumpy you'd never notice the difference. Being inside at the controls, however, you would feel and see the effects of a bumpy runway. Are they a little exaggerated sure but, who knows how bumpy they are.

 

See the second video I posted at minute 30:20. There is an onboard video from behind the nose gear from a real mig-21 takeoff. Way smoother than is currently simulated. Sounds like others are in agreement that it needs to be toned down. Just saying..

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See the second video I posted at minute 30:20. There is an onboard video from behind the nose gear from a real mig-21 takeoff. Way smoother than is currently simulated. Sounds like others are in agreement that it needs to be toned down. Just saying..

 

On that video posted, what version of the Mig-21 was it? How many versions of the MIG-21 are there? Does it change country to country? Where they updated? What mods on it? What was the weight and load out? Weather conditions? Runway conditions? etc. How does it compare to the DCS final version? Is the DCS final version out or is it still on beta?

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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On that video posted, what version of the Mig-21 was it? How many versions of the MIG-21 are there? Does it change country to country? Where they updated? What mods on it? What was the weight and load out? Weather conditions? Runway conditions? etc. How does it compare to the DCS final version? Is the DCS final version out or is it still on beta?

 

Are you for real?

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As a pilot myself I would trust real MiG pilots to tell me if the experience they have irl compares to the experience they have flying the MiG in DCS.

 

Sometimes it's not just about simulating things into perfection but more about conveying the "feel" or "thrill" of flying the real thing to PC pilots. If MiG pilots recognize this bouncing on the runways when they fly the MiG, then by all means keep it like this.

 

Also remember that runways in the east used to be quite poor compared to western counterparts. I can attest to that. Older runways are (way) more slippery en not as smooth (understatement) as the newer runways. So even while the runways in DCS are really (really, really) smooth. MiG's used to be flown out of older runways where they might have bounced around quite a bit more then on modern runways.

 

So my interpretation is that basically the behaviour on older poorly constructed runways is modelled in the bouncing behaviour of the 21. And I think that if the MiG's would use a DCS smooth runway irl the bouncing would be quite a bit less.

 

So, what do you want? The real MiG pilot's experience, or the "perfect" simulated experience with DCS standard smooth runways?

 

I would go with the former.

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As a pilot myself I would trust real MiG pilots to tell me if the experience they have irl compares to the experience they have flying the MiG in DCS.

 

Sometimes it's not just about simulating things into perfection but more about conveying the "feel" or "thrill" of flying the real thing to PC pilots. If MiG pilots recognize this bouncing on the runways when they fly the MiG, then by all means keep it like this.

 

Also remember that runways in the east used to be quite poor compared to western counterparts. I can attest to that. Older runways are (way) more slippery en not as smooth (understatement) as the newer runways. So even while the runways in DCS are really (really, really) smooth. MiG's used to be flown out of older runways where they might have bounced around quite a bit more then on modern runways.

 

So my interpretation is that basically the behaviour on older poorly constructed runways is modelled in the bouncing behaviour of the 21. And I think that if the MiG's would use a DCS smooth runway irl the bouncing would be quite a bit less.

 

So, what do you want? The real MiG pilot's experience, or the "perfect" simulated experience with DCS standard smooth runways?

 

I would go with the former.

 

I am a driver of several older cars. I own 2 aussie built wagons both with worn out rear shocks. When I tow the trailer with 2 motorbikes in the back the car tends to bounce, even on the M1 in Brisbane. I can hit a pretty solid bump, get to a set of traffic lights 100mtrs down the road, stop dead and the car is still bouncing.

 

Point is, maybe the MIG-21 has been modeled with stuffed shocks, after all the plane was designed and built in the 50's.

 

I agree with you 100%, and maybe if it was an F-22 or F-35 that was modeled, maybe the suspension would not bounce as much given the age of the aircraft components. Leatherneck have modeled the aircraft to the age and with aged components, can't get more realistic than that :)

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What was the weight and load out? Weather conditions?

 

This is about the only post in this entire thread that makes a wee bit of sense.

 

Yes, there may be significant jitters if you don't know what you are doing/piloting the bird for the first time. Yes, these jitters are largely neutralized once you get the feel of the aircraft/know what you are doing.

 

More importantly, the loadout/parameters of the aircraft/meteorological conditions can lead to vast, vast differences in aircraft behaviour in the take-off roll, especially insofar as loadout is concerned.

 

I would definitely not pay attention to youtube vids at this stage. Yes, the FM is still being tweaked to a certain extent but even now, if you treat the airplane like it's supposed to be treated then a lot of perceived shortcomings/quirks seem to vanish.

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In the game, runways are made of square concrete block things(not a native english speaker). In that video the runway is smooth, thats why the mig runs steady. On runways made of concrete, i bet the ride is bumpy as hell :)

In game the runway is as smooth as glass with older concrete slab textures. You could use moon craters as textures, but the runway will still be smooth to the touch. (Figuratively speaking of course)

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Come on. I don't think there is any extreme differences between the different version regarding the landing gear...

 

We do not know how it compares to the final version of this software, which is why the OP asked.

 

Are you for real?

 

successful troll was successful.....

My point was, we do not know a lot of the factors on that video and it can hardly be used for comparison to a DCS MIG-21, which is unfinished. People do this so often. It happen on BMS all the time. They say; "I saw this F-16 video and this is not in BMS, so its wrong" Without knowing all the different versions of the F-16. I am just as guilty of doing this in the past. They are so many version of the MIG-21, with many different weights. I would imagine they would be different tires, different main gear and noise gear struts. The F-16 has several different landing gears and tires and is several years younger the the MIG design.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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On that video posted, what version of the Mig-21 was it? How many versions of the MIG-21 are there? Does it change country to country? Where they updated? What mods on it? What was the weight and load out? Weather conditions? Runway conditions? etc. How does it compare to the DCS final version? Is the DCS final version out or is it still on beta?

 

I understand it's in beta. I was trying to be proactive to possibly help point out a characteristic that may be overly exaggerated. Those are all good questions, my observation is so far consistent based on the multiple takeoff videos ive seen of a variety of mig-21 models both inboard and outboard video and the multiple dcs mig-21 beta videos of takeoffs. Don't be a troll. It was only an observation.

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Don't be a troll. It was only an observation.

 

Did you not read his explanation? He's not trolling so quit the accusations. If anything, your conclusion based on your observations is incorrect.

 

You dudes should address the post and not the person: Will be a much happier place if done.


Edited by 159th_Viper

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So, does anyone actually have information on the 21 module landing gear or ground operational limits? Meaning, speed limits on the ground or weigh limits?

 

My experience with the a Mig-21 landing gear is limited to towing the MIG-21 in EAA Air venture back in 1998/99. The landing gear looked so complicated, hell even the tow bar was. It had wires the went to the main landing gear (MLG). I assume it was to prevent the nose landing gear (NLG) to collapse while towing the aircraft. I'm not even sure what version Mig-21 it was. Back then it was park on the west ramp, not even sure they still have that in EAA Air vnture.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDtvxQtn5mU

 

An example of an F-14 roll from inside the cockpit. Notice how when he goes down for the roll the aircraft isn't bouncing a lot, however, his head is going left and right and up and down. I think this is what we're seeing in the videos(or at least I hope it is). The mig's suspension provides the smooth ride for the aircraft down the runway, however, those bumps that are being taken care of by that leaves the pilot to be bouncing around. as RL pilot this is very true. you go on a roll and almost everytime you bounce around somewhat. I'm not saying that the exaggeration is true for all runway conditions, however, 9/10 times you will never have a true smooth take-off. Earlier someone said also that what would you rather have? The MiG-21 pilot's experience or silky smooth runway. I agree, the latter is far better.

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As a pilot myself I would trust real MiG pilots to tell me if the experience they have irl compares to the experience they have flying the MiG in DCS.

 

Sometimes it's not just about simulating things into perfection but more about conveying the "feel" or "thrill" of flying the real thing to PC pilots. If MiG pilots recognize this bouncing on the runways when they fly the MiG, then by all means keep it like this.

 

In most cases, I would agree.

 

But imagine being used to sit in a real Mig-21..

Now you get a few bucks for explaining how it is, and to evaluate on a pc game version of your kick ass job..

 

I imagine it would be very easy to exaggerate a bit when you go from Mig-21 to computer.

 

I'm sure it jitters. It makes sence a plane like the mig 21 doesnt know which way to go when lift is beginning to be generated at the low speeds. But I agree that something about it seems off in the game. I think it looks unatural with the speed it shifts from one side to another. But I'm sure a lot of it from youtube vid's right now might be because people want to lift the nose too soon..

 

And yes, it's still in development. But it's in its final phases, and it's a good thing that people notice stuff like this and gets a debate going..


Edited by <Grizzly>
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Most individuals will start to take off in an improper manner in the MiG-21. It is imperative that you pull back and lift the nose, otherwise the bouncing will be excessive.

 

Do note that the suspension system is being tweaked constantly.

 

The best take-off video made public so far is this one by UVP-CZ. AFAIK the MiG-21 is being flown by a former MiG-21 pilot. Starts at 2:52.

 

Nicholas Dackard

 

Founder & Lead Artist

Heatblur Simulations

 

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