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advanced aeronautics question - "stall turn (hammerhead)"


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Hi Guys

 

I'm trying to perform this manouvre and having problems.

 

here are the instuctions i'm following to do one:

 

pull into a vertical (90') climb.

wait for the aircraft to stall

apply full rudder (left or right, with a touch of opposite aileron to counter the rudder roll).

release rudder when the nose is pointing straight down.

pull up level so to be pointing 180' from the original heading.

 

problem with this is in the f15 at below 150mph i lose all control of the control surfaces (isn't THIS a 'stall'?), and generally end up in aflat spin. I have managed to pull it off more or less if i hit the rudder at about 230mph with a 60' climb angle (to stop the aircraft from dropping below 150mph before the manouvre is complete) and with combat flaps.

 

Has anybody managed to perform one of these turns successfully, and if so please could you advise on the correct way to do it?

 

 

While we're at it - is there any way to escape from a flat spin? No matter what i do (not even the dubious 'Firefox' tactic of lowering the undercarriage) i cannot get the aircraft airspeed back up past 150mph to regain control :confused:

 

Many Many thanks in advance :icon_supe

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Uhh ... lowering the landing gear doesn't do squat for you ;)

 

 

Gear up, flaps up, throttle IDLE.

Put the nose down and apply opposite rudder to the spin. You might start spinning in the other direction ... reverse rudder.

 

 

Once you are able to contorl the plane, increase throttle and speed up.

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I think peforming a hammerhead is impossible with the standard FM (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!). just as it's impossible to stall and then flip backwards...or do the cobra and then flip backwards...something screwy about the FM at the stall.

 

Some of these maneuvers can be performed by failing the FLCS (set to 100% in the failures tab). Then you fly in proportional mode without the assistance of the regular FLCS. Takes some getting used to, but you can pull some crazy maneuvers!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 



 

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I think peforming a hammerhead is impossible with the standard FM (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!). just as it's impossible to stall and then flip backwards...or do the cobra and then flip backwards...something screwy about the FM at the stall.

 

Some of these maneuvers can be performed by failing the FLCS (set to 100% in the failures tab). Then you fly in proportional mode without the assistance of the regular FLCS. Takes some getting used to, but you can pull some crazy maneuvers!

 

You could do a hammerhead, and other advanced manoeuvers in Flanker 2.5, but you were at the risk of your plane's FM being all screwed up, resulting in rediculous post stall spins, and then the game would crash. In lomac your plane just stops rotating if you try something wild at extremely slow speeds (under 130km/h), unless you use the abterburner.

Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:

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Uhh ... lowering the landing gear doesn't do squat for you ;)

 

 

Gear up, flaps up, throttle IDLE.

Put the nose down and apply opposite rudder to the spin. You might start spinning in the other direction ... reverse rudder.

 

 

Once you are able to contorl the plane, increase throttle and speed up.

 

Yea, in Lockon`s F15 this generally works. But "when" ED implements

a good AFM for the Eagle, the recovery might go like this:

 

... For recovery from a positive g spin, maintain neutral longitudinal stick

and apply full lateral stick with the yaw, the same direction as the turn

needle. Rudder is not needed, but if used, must be against the yaw, opposite

to the direction of turn needle. Neutralize all controlls when the departure warning stops and allow large residual motions to damp.

Neutral controls will recover the aircraft from all negative g conditions

including spins and auto-rolls; however, rudder with the roll will provide

a faster recovery from a negative g auto-roll.

Do not move the throttles unless in afterburner. If in afterburner, reduce

power to MIL.

 

The checklist follows...

 

Edit: oh, the compressor stall was not a factor in the above quote, of course.

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...While we're at it - is there any way to escape from a flat spin? No matter what i do (not even the dubious 'Firefox' tactic of lowering the undercarriage) i cannot get the aircraft airspeed back up past 150mph to regain control.

FWIW, there's a spin recovery tutorial on my site you might find helpful.

 

Rich

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg

 

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This post caught my attention because I used to compete in scale aerobatics with remote control aircraft (I flew an Extra 300). The Hammerhead was one of my maneuvers of expertise. It was performed by going vertical while throttling back and maintaining a good line with slight rudder and aileron input. When the plane comes to a [near] stop (stall), you throttle up quickly and then back to idle while "kicking" rudder full deflection. This "goosing" the throttle prop-washes the tail around beautifully if timed just right. The key is to do it at the exact moment of the stall and before the wobbling etc. occurs due to the stall. You get point deductions if there is too much tail wobble or other eratic behavior but the judges liked to see a slight wobble of the tail on the down line as proof that a stall had occurred.

 

That's how to do a hammerhead with a prop plane, a very overpowered plane I might add. I had no idea that a jet could even do such a thing as the key to this maneuver is "prop wash" which a jet doesn't have.

 

Can a jet do a hammerhead? I would think a wingover (which is similar except that there is no stall at the top of the turn) is the closest a jet could come to executing a hammerhead.

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Exactly.

 

I think a hammerhead would only work properly on aircraft that are either prop driven or have thrust-vectoring engines. As you have already pointed out correctly your control surfaces lose their effectiveness once the airstream flowing over them slows beyond a certain speed - this can only be countered by a prop continuing to blow air over them or TVC engines that don't care about airspeed. So, you will not be able to pull this off without certain tricks in any of the aircraft in LOMAC.

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another consideration (not in LOMAC) is that the air near the inlets stagnates which increases the susceptibility of the engines to stagnation (a decrease in RPM and increase in FTIT to 1000C.) or compressor stall and resultant flameout. As previously stated, this is one reason why jets usually don't do hammerheads, and perform wingovers instead.

 

With regards to departure, the real F-15 risk for departure increases with asymmetric load greater than 5,000lbs and AOA greater than 30 units.

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Thanks for all the imput guys. :)

 

Especially interesting is the realisation that a jet cant do a hammerhead. I never realised that the prop wash made the difference.

 

I was mostly confused because i remember a few years back (just after the end of the cold war), at an air show on TV, a MIG (not sure which) did some amazing acrobatics - one of which was an amazing tail slide followed by a very smooth recovery. i was ahlf under the uimpression this was a hammerhead (butnow i dont think it was).

 

Anyway - thanks a lot all :) :horseback

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Hi Guys

 

I'm trying to perform this manouvre and having problems.

 

here are the instuctions i'm following to do one:

 

pull into a vertical (90') climb.

wait for the aircraft to stall

apply full rudder (left or right, with a touch of opposite aileron to counter the rudder roll).

release rudder when the nose is pointing straight down.

pull up level so to be pointing 180' from the original heading.

 

 

I personally know from some German F4-F Phantom II pilots that this is a common known manouver for the Phantom in order to surprise pilots of better performing aircraft such as F16C and F15C. They did it a lot at Decimomannu / Sardinia.

This manouver actually works !

kind regards,

Raven....

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Hammerheads and tailslide (front and back) are possible and easy to do with standart FM, I can do it so you can do it.. with su33 or su27 with no problems...

 

just enter a full stall using some full left rudder/stick and full elevetor(pull) untill you can pilot only with rudder, then climb up to vertical flight and add full rudder when speed is almost zero and there you'll have a kind of hammerhead...

 

In this kind of "advanced stall" you'll have a lot of AOA, so make sure your flight direction is vertical and not just your AOC at 90° (probably it'll be 110° )

 

EDIT,: pilot just with rudder and elevator, no ailerons in "advanced stall"

Robbie.

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guru,

Not that this is a big deal (certainly not intended to argue) but what you're describing is a wingover, not a hammerhead. A hammer is a gyroscopic maneuver which requires prop wash and prop torque to accomplish. The two are very close to one another but if you ever see a pro (e.g. Patty Wagstaff) do a good hammer, you'll certainly see the difference. A jet (even one with thrust vectoring) simply cannot do these kinds of 3D maneuvers.

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A jet (even one with thrust vectoring) simply cannot do these kinds of 3D maneuvers.

 

Yeah I know perfectly what you mean, I did some real aerobatic piloting too in my last 15 years, I'm not saying how to do this with a jet, I'm saying how to do this in lock on.. It's not exactly looking as an hammerhead but very similar. Indeed is not possible with real.

Robbie.

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