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Gun cam


Nereid

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The problem is, that this switch takes immersion away, because it produces a gun cam out of thin air.

 

 

That is pushing it a little too far.

 

When you rearm/refuel, the weapon magically appears on the pylon. "out of thin air".

I assume you refuse to reload / rearm to not break the realism ?

Oh, respawn is also creating an aircraft out of thin air. No plane factory at the corner of the field.

 

:P :P :P

 

 

Sometimes, you have to give it a break and admit some "adaptation". Unless you want things very very very realistic, like a real fuel truck that park next to you, the dude fills the tank, and before taking off you have a Paypal popup to pay for your JET-1 fuel. :P

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Ok, I would like a switch to kill an enemy. In multiplayer too, please. And after I have used it, I pretend it wasn't there. Trust me, without much training I would be one of the best pilots out there. Among thousend of other pilots. All are the best of the best, all with very short lives.

 

So, lets transfer DCS into a shooter...

 

Its call Flaming Cliffs

 

Well, you like to cheat? because removing the gun cam in flight with a switch is some kind of cheating...

 

Then leave it on, period.


Edited by mikel.132

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That is pushing it a little too far.

 

When you rearm/refuel, the weapon magically appears on the pylon. "out of thin air".

I assume you refuse to reload / rearm to not break the realism ?

 

No. DCS is a simulation. Its simulates the real world up to a special degree. DCS simulates the aircraft and its systems but not external support or manpower for rearming (at least in its current state). So the current rearming of the aircraft as it is modelled is acceptable.

But DCS standard simulates the aircraft systems and the cockpit. There is a switch called "gun cam". So what does it in the real plane? It provides power to the gun cam. Does it install the gun cam? NO. So if flipping this switch causes a gun cam to appear is not a simulation of this system/aircraft and therefore some kind of a bug - even when if it's intended by the devs.

 

Oh, respawn is also creating an aircraft out of thin air. No plane factory at the corner of the field.

 

:P :P :P

 

Sometimes, you have to give it a break and admit some "adaptation". Unless you want things very very very realistic, like a real fuel truck that park next to you, the dude fills the tank, and before taking off you have a Paypal popup to pay for your JET-1 fuel. :P

 

Again: No. DCS imulates the real world up to a special degree. DCS simulates the aircraft and its systems... but I'm repeating myself.

 

Regarding the "pausing" and other things. There is no switch that pauses the game. If there were any, I would call it a bug, too. Pausing the game is done on a meta layer of the simulation and not in the simulation itself. And yes: if pausing were possible in multiplayer for some and not for other players, I would call this a bug,too.

 

Summary: The gun cam switch is currently simulated in an incorrect way. There is not much to discuss here. It's just a bug or some kind of "broken by design", but its not a well done implementation.

 

You could just argue, that these critics are nitpicking in some way. Yes they are. We are criticizing this module at a very hight level. But we all (including the devs) want a module on DCS standards and this switch won't comply with these standards at the moment.


Edited by Nereid
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DCS:A-10C / DCS:Ka-50 / DCS:UH-1H / DCS:Mig21bis / DCS:P-51D / DCS:Mi-8MTV2 / DCS:Fw190D9 / DCS:Bf109K4 / DCS:C-101EB / DCS:L-39C / DCS:F-5E / DCS:Spitfire LF Mk. IX / DCS:AJS37

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Its call Flaming Cliffs

 

 

 

Then leave it on, period.

 

Thats not the point. The point is cheating, because thehe told us, "he pretend it wasn't there". thats cheating, nothing more. And the switch has a bug: It causes the gun cam to appear, which it should not do.

 

In your words: Just remove the gun cam completely or implement it the correct way. period.

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This is concern with realism taken way too far, especially because the gun camera has no function and no effect on flying, utilizing, or fighting the aircraft beyond very, very slightly reducing vision out the front, and double especially because there are probably an infinite number of more important improvements to make.

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Erm... Are you the only one who complains about this very smart feature?

 

Yes, he is. Because he is the only one with nuts to do it on these forums.

 

But I agree with him. You have my support Nereid!

 

I would want this to be a loadout option instead. If it's not loaded, then the switch in the cockpit would do nothing. If it's loaded, then the switch would also do nothing. But the immersion would still be there, so for us fancy SIMMERS, we would want to remember to switch it on in cases where we want it just because we like doing things by the book and to learn stuff.

 

It's a personal opinion. You can just ignore it if you hate the guncam. I really cant see any reason in why to argue about this and disagree. Why would you want to remove/attach it in flight anyways?


Edited by <Grizzly>
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Yes, he is. Because he is the only one with nuts to do it on these forums.

 

But I agree with him. You have my support Nereid!

 

I would want this to be a loadout option instead. If it's not loaded, then the switch in the cockpit would do nothing. If it's loaded, then the switch would also do nothing. But the immersion would still be there, so for us fancy SIMMERS, we would want to remember to switch it on in cases where we want it just because we like doing things by the book and to learn stuff.

 

It's a personal opinion. You can just ignore it if you hate the guncam. I really cant see any reason in why to argue about this and disagree. Why would you want to remove/attach it in flight anyways?

 

 

I see it the other way- they give this "Pointless button" a funktion :)

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I see it the other way- they give this "Pointless button" a funktion :)

 

Better a pointless button than a button that does things that it shouldn't do. What's next? IFF switches that changes aircraft skin in flight? A button for refilling fuel in flight?

 

This switch is incorrectly modeled. It does things the real thing in the Mig-21 won't to. because this module is a DCS level module it's just done wrong. There is not much room to argue and it's just ridiculous to defend this.

 

In other threads we are discussing way less important things (exact missile behavior, not enough or to much smoke,...) but regarding a switch that creates components in flight out of thin air we are accepting compromises? And some people are telling something like "to much realism"... really? This is a simulation, btw. We WANT realism, there can't be to much...

 

 

I would want this to be a loadout option instead. If it's not loaded, then the switch in the cockpit would do nothing. If it's loaded, then the switch would also do nothing.

 

Signed. One of the best options to implement it. If it's there and blocking sight, it should do exactly this: blocking sight. Turning it off should not remove this obstacle. If someone won't want it to block sight, he should just not load it. "turning it off and pretent it wasn't there" is cheating and not some kind of argument to retain the switch the way it is.


Edited by Nereid

DCS:A-10C / DCS:Ka-50 / DCS:UH-1H / DCS:Mig21bis / DCS:P-51D / DCS:Mi-8MTV2 / DCS:Fw190D9 / DCS:Bf109K4 / DCS:C-101EB / DCS:L-39C / DCS:F-5E / DCS:Spitfire LF Mk. IX / DCS:AJS37

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Immersion.jpg

 

just leave the switch alone

 

If this is your argument in this discussion... well it tells us much.

 

It seems we need a realism option for some people here: "[ ] gun cam switch affects existence of gun cam". Some (like me) want more realism and some are happy with less (I don't understand the point in playing a simulation then, but that's not my part to criticize).

DCS:A-10C / DCS:Ka-50 / DCS:UH-1H / DCS:Mig21bis / DCS:P-51D / DCS:Mi-8MTV2 / DCS:Fw190D9 / DCS:Bf109K4 / DCS:C-101EB / DCS:L-39C / DCS:F-5E / DCS:Spitfire LF Mk. IX / DCS:AJS37

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If you don't like it, don't flip the switch. End of story.

 

We give you the option for a reason.

We don't have the manpower to change things like this currently. Sorry.

 

As for it not being realistic? Well, you can't really close the canopy efficiently yourself in the MiG-21. Neither can you rotate your head as much as you can now, nor lean as far forward/to the sides.

Just two examples of "unrealistic" things in our simulation. In the end, this is a game, and we derive enjoyment from realism and gameplay. Some more from one sphere, some more from another.

 

Essentially: I wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion that it is a poor ("unrealistic") implementation.

The request to have it as a loadout option has been noted, however.


Edited by Cobra847
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Nicholas Dackard

 

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If you don't like it, don't flip the switch. End of story.

 

...

 

Essentially: I wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion that it is a poor ("unrealistic") implementation.

The request to have it as a loadout option has been noted, however.

 

While I certainly (and with some emphasis!) don't think this is a showstopper , I will add my voice to those who find it very annoying indeed. It is a real switch, present in the real aircraft, which affects the simulation in a way it would not in the real aircraft. That breaks the immersion for me, however slightly. I certainly leave it alone, but this means I cannot follow the proper procedure for the aircraft - breaking immersion.

 

The same arguments which are used for this switch having this behaviour could be used e g for using a spare switch somewhere to control labels on/off, or other game functionality. Let switches be switches, and use the game interface for controlling the game aspects - such as the configuration of the aircraft before stepping into the cockpit.

 

I think the loadout option route is the correct one to go, but I wholeheartedly agree that it is not something to spend manhours on at this point in time.

 

(FWIW, I'd prefer not to see hot rearming/refuelling as well - except for those few aircraft and situations where it is normal procedure. I far prefer to exit to the GUI and start a new flight, as that is what you'd do in real life. Having hot rearm/refuel is, for most of this simulation, catering to the air quake crowd. Some will feel offended by that statement, but that is the truth of it. :vertag:)

 

Regards,

/Fredrik

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Guys,

 

so called "gun-camera" is not what it seems.

 

This device is used for training purposes, to make images of fixed net and reticle when - during the training - pilot presses fire/launch button (firing/launching could be simulated - no actual firing or launching, or real). Images are processed after the flight (note that this is the single seat aircraft) for evaluating purposes: pilot will receive "the grade" (I hope this is the right term) according to those images. Most of A-A missiles have their training counterparts with recorders inside. Similarly to this camera, recorder will record all radar+weapons+buttons operations, and pilot would be "graded" after the training flight. These devices along with the SARPP are called "resources of objective control" (naive translation).

 

(This was very brief explanation.)

 

When the aircraft is combat-ready, this camera is removed.

 

In essence, the only way to simulate real thing is to remove it completely. We did not want this.

Power through superb knowledge, training and teamwork.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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  • 3 months later...

Why is it not used in combat sorties?

 

If I am not mistaken, these cams are regularily used everywhere else - we all have seen the footage on youtube. Bf109 shooting down P-51 and vice versa in WWII, A-10C gun runs directed by a JTAC in "danger close" conditions, Apache's pulverizing mud huts with Hellfires.

 

I always was under the impression that this is done for several reasons:

- BDA / estimation of the effectiveness, measuring the mission success

- documentation for legal purposes ("colateral damage", "blue on blue" -> pilot responsible? all procedures followed to the letter?

- training - was the weapon employment good or what could have been done better?

 

Is that different in other countries? Or is it in this a more special case and it is perhaps just not feasible as that thing is just limiting the view too much to be used all the time?


Edited by Flagrum
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Hmm... I think Your comparison is a bit too far-fetched. SSh-45 camera was a photo-camera, not a movie-one, so You could not record any "footage" with it. I don't even know if it could take a series of photos in one go, Novak would have to tell us more about it. All and all, probably not a very useful combat device, compared to actual gun cameras.

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I don't really get the problem here... The only "issue" (if you can even call it an issue) I have with the gun cam is that it doesn't really do anything besides sitting there, which is fine by me.

 

But come on guys, this sim is amazing. It is the best you can get at this time on the general market!

I am actually surprised to see someone nitpicking like this over an insignificant tiny detail.

If I had to dig into the loadout menu/mission builder to change the availability of the cam I wouldn't even bother to do it.

And I would say to LN not to spend time on this thing unless they've got nothing better to do, which I can hardly imagine.

 

I mean no disrespect to anyone here I am just saying: Be glad we have this MiG, fly it to the edge and beyon and enjoy yourself!

It is the best plane to date and the most realistic sim, aside from climbing in the cockpit yourself...

With that said I am signing off.

Cherio:pilotfly:

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I don't really get the problem here... The only "issue" (if you can even call it an issue) I have with the gun cam is that it doesn't really do anything besides sitting there, which is fine by me.

 

But come on guys, this sim is amazing. It is the best you can get at this time on the general market!

I am actually surprised to see someone nitpicking like this over an insignificant tiny detail.

If I had to dig into the loadout menu/mission builder to change the availability of the cam I wouldn't even bother to do it.

And I would say to LN not to spend time on this thing unless they've got nothing better to do, which I can hardly imagine.

 

I mean no disrespect to anyone here I am just saying: Be glad we have this MiG, fly it to the edge and beyon and enjoy yourself!

It is the best plane to date and the most realistic sim, aside from climbing in the cockpit yourself...

With that said I am signing off.

Cherio:pilotfly:

 

/\ /\ Agreed....... have some rep Dutchy,..................

 

Mountain out of a mole hill springs to mind here.

 

Personally I fly with it on, for me it add's that little bit extra realism and in my opinion a cool addition by the devs. I don't even notice it appearing from nowhere as I'm heads down in the pit looking at the switch and flicking it at the time :D

 

For me the MiG-21 just rocks........best module in DCS to date, by a very long way


Edited by bart

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I'd be fine with a switch in the options menu or load out screen to add or remove it before flight, but honestly, whatever. The current method works fine and Leatherneck has a thousand other things that they should prioritize over this. This is something they should do when one of the guys has run out of tasks and is so bored he feels like programming video games.

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  • 3 weeks later...
The current method works fine

 

 

I disagree completely. The current method won't work at all. This module is prefixed with "DCS" and this feature is a violation of this.

 

Let's hope there is a mod someday that disables this switch.

DCS:A-10C / DCS:Ka-50 / DCS:UH-1H / DCS:Mig21bis / DCS:P-51D / DCS:Mi-8MTV2 / DCS:Fw190D9 / DCS:Bf109K4 / DCS:C-101EB / DCS:L-39C / DCS:F-5E / DCS:Spitfire LF Mk. IX / DCS:AJS37

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The current method won't work at all.

 

Yes it does, it works as intended by the devs. So it works.

 

Another thing is that you don´t like this current design, and it is fair, is your personal opinion and is as relevant as any other opinion.

 

But, you have explained your opinion and given an accurate explanation of why is designed in this way and how works in RL.

 

May be time to say thanks to the devs and discuss other things?, as your opinion is clear to everyone and noted.

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