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That pesky Phantom dogfight


Cruiser18
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Okay people, I'm a bit surprised that it seems noone has done a thread on this so far, so I guess I'll get started.

 

I can't possibly be the only one that feels like the guy is just running in circles around me. He accelerates quicker, he climbs like a beast and he turns like there was no tomorrow. I am frankly a bit at a loss with how to handle him after a handful of attempts. If I go into a turning match with him, it often ends with me having bled too much speed and either i'm forced to fly straight to get speed, or have my Mig spin out of control. Can't run away from him either, and he continuously pulls off insane climbs, just to swing around at the top and come down again at my back.

 

Anyone has some tips on how to take him down? So far the only thing that has worked somewhat is just simply spin my Mig completely out of control when he's on my ass and then recover behind him when he passes.

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No way in a hell a Phantom should be out turning a Mig-21, gotta love the AI.

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I have no issues at all to get to his six, or shake him off my six. If you watch your speed and angle of attack, MiG outturns him just fine.

 

Hitting him, though, is whole another game. It is me chasing his back, either until I run out of fuel, or run out of ammo. Infact, only non bomber size air target I can land some gun rounds on so far is an F-86, I barely scratched his paint with about 8 rounds, while his remaining 7 buddies ganged on me. Air to air gunnery with this bird is quite something indeed...

 

Have a lot to learn :joystick:

Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s

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I was able to do pretty good against the phantom, I'm gonna have to run through the guns training a bit more in the near future though... I would have had him with just a little bit more time, but I pulled too hard and went over the allowed AoA, stalled bad, and hit the ground. Other than that I kept finding I was getting good angles on him constantly during turns. It usually helps to keep the afterburner going while in a turn fight, otherwise you'll bleed speed quickly. Fly hard, fly aggressive, and you'll come out on top.

This post is protected by a pilot who has a serious lack of negotiating skills, but is absolute hell in a dogfight. If you do not belong here, please leave.

 

You have now been properly negotiated with.

 

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AFAIK, The F-4 can out turn the Mig-21 at low altitude. Mig has the advantage at high altitude, was lighter, smaller (harder to see). The F-4 could out climb it, better radar, longer range, Better visibility, etc. I am looking for several videos on this and Documentation. Another thing to consider, I have not got the module, but we do not have a Circa F-4. The F-4 available right now are the E model, Modern E model. More powerful and better equipped.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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I think it could be related, here they depict the Mig- as more maneuverable. Not Sure what version of the Mig-21 They used.

http://www.jber.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123314594

Not sure what MIG-21 the NVAF/VPAF used at this time, but here they depict the Mig ans more agile but bleeding airspeed quicker at low altitude.

http://youtu.be/LgLLBsmFrkI?t=24m36s

 

Interesting Air Combat Maneuvers Evaluations ( unclassified) No mig 21 info but interesting never the less.

Direct PDF Link

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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My advise, keep speed UP and fight at higher altitude! Acceleration (without emergency afterburner turned on) is somewhat slow so try not to turn-n-burn it too much because if you loose speed and get someone on your tail, it's game over.

 

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what I found was that the superior turn rate of F-4, F-5 and L-39 means that any time you can turn 180, they can do it quicker so as soon as you've come around after the merge so have they, you merge again head on, no shot due to rear aspect only. pass each other, turn around merge again etc etc. You can never stay behind them.

 

If you come down from above they will pull out of your way and reverse back in behind you once you overshoot.

 

what to do :S

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As far as a mad dash for weapons, I find you must absolutely set up weapons before hand, so you aren't messing with switches while you are concentrating on getting a good angle. I had this problem when fighting some L-39s, as soon as I got in the habit of setting up the weapon before starting an attack it does become easier.

 

I suppose missiles to guns would be easier, but it is still a switch flips to get the proper pipper set up, which could cost you a killing shot.

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F-4 doesn't really turn superior... In long, sustained turns yes, it has more thrust and bigger wings and slats on them too, it can retain a turn much longer alright, but in my experience MiG-21 had the instantenous turning advantage, especially at higher speeds, and it could retain it until I got to Phantom's six, and stayed there until I ran out of ammo or fuel, in various attempts :).

 

Haven't tried F-5 and L-39, I would guess they would indeed be better turners than the MiG,well take some R-60M with you, they work from side / up aspects too :)). I also went against a flock of 8 F-86 and 4 Su-25. F-86 turns better, but I could still get some of them with R-60M and also scored a few gun hits, before getting ganged up and riddled with .50 cal AIM-9B holes :D

Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s

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Hi,

 

MiG-21 is no slouch (even though it feels like it).

 

I found you can happily turn the MiG at 220 kph if you fly it right, but it is right on the edge at this speed.

 

I highly recommend that people explore the slow speed end of the performance envelope to find where the edge is, before trying to take her into combat.

 

In real-world tests, the MiG can hold its own against aircraft that are perceived to be "modern, agile dog-fighters".

 

Probably the biggest thing the MiG demands is respect from its pilot - there are no flight control computers to help you. Don't forget that rudder, either.

 

Whilst 600 kph initially sounds "fast", this is actually ~320 kts.

 

Here is a quick table to help you relate kph to kts. Once you appreciate how *slow* 600 kph is, then you will find it easier to employ the MiG WVR. Note that kts conversion is approximate.

 

225 kph = 120 kts

400 kph = 215 kts

500 kph = 270 kts

600 kph = 320 kts

700 kph = 380 kts

800 kph = 430 kts

900 kph = 485 kts

1000 kph = 540 kts

 

As you can see, it is preferential to keep airspeed between 600-900 kph during a turning fight.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

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Is it safe to assume that you have not yet learned how to dogfight in the mig after merely two days of it being available to fly?

 

Fair enough. While I also enjoy the whole trial-and-error approach, I also believe that having teachers is a good thing as sometimes some people just knows the right way to do things. After 10 attempts where the only time I managed to get on the Phantom's ass was when he was withdrawing from the battlefield because of low fuel, patience was wearing a bit thin and I figured someone here knew a lot more than me about the problems pilots faced in a Mig-21 vs Phantom matchup. ;)

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I enabled labels and voila, Now I reliably defeat Excellent skill level F-4 Phantoms (with Aim-9P) no problem. having labels enabled to maintain sight did all the difference.

It is way too hard to maintain sight without labels in DCS in the absence of metal reflections, shimmer and the natural ability of our eye to pick out small objects.

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Just finished a 3 hour session where I have constantly been dogfighting this guy. Same story every time.

 

I burn all my fuel. Eject. Respawn with new plane. Burn my fuel. Eject. Respawn. And on it goes until he runs out of fuel and I can shoot him out of the sky. I feel like I've tried everything against him. Fighting low, fighting high. Doing turn matches, loop matches, fighting with flaps on, fighting without afterburner, fighting with only afterburner. Nothing helps.

 

Anyone having any luck with killing this guy?

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Just finished a 3 hour session where I have constantly been dogfighting this guy. Same story every time.

 

I burn all my fuel. Eject. Respawn with new plane. Burn my fuel. Eject. Respawn. And on it goes until he runs out of fuel and I can shoot him out of the sky. I feel like I've tried everything against him. Fighting low, fighting high. Doing turn matches, loop matches, fighting with flaps on, fighting without afterburner, fighting with only afterburner. Nothing helps.

 

Anyone having any luck with killing this guy?

 

Haven't gotten as far as being able to try dogfighting yet, but it sounds like that first kill sure will be sweet! Whenever it comes... ^^,

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what we need is detailed performance data for the Mig-21 and the specific variant of the F-4 in DCS. through a direct comparison we can work out exactly how to maximize the Mig's performance advantages (if any). if there are no performance advantages over the F-4, then there's hardly any point in trying to out-fly it.

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I think it could be related, here they depict the Mig- as more maneuverable. Not Sure what version of the Mig-21 They used.

http://www.jber.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123314594

Not sure what MIG-21 the NVAF/VPAF used at this time, but here they depict the Mig ans more agile but bleeding airspeed quicker at low altitude.

http://youtu.be/LgLLBsmFrkI?t=24m36s

 

Interesting Air Combat Maneuvers Evaluations ( unclassified) No mig 21 info but interesting never the less.

Direct PDF Link

 

what they say in that history channel show is that the Mig is more agile at high altitude; over 20,000ft. that instant action dogfight starts at 5,000ft, so you're immediately at a disadvantage.

 

that being said, i have managed to get on the F-4's six a couple of times by getting him to overshoot me. however, he then goes into a straight up vertical climb that the Mig-21 cannot follow. if you try to follow him, you'll stall out and lose your engine. i haven't worked out what to do about that yet. maybe just fly level until he comes down and try not to lose sight of him.

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Tried this mission two times now.

1st time did not take long to get behind him, and stay behind him. This was actually really fun.

This ended in the Phantom doing a inverted loop, stalling (I think) and crashing when he couldn't recover.

No shots fired in this one, until after he crashed as a victory celebration.

 

2nd time, I also got behind him fast enough. I also (according to tacview), landed a gun round on him once.

This one ended with me depleting my rounds, and later me flaming out and crashing.

 

Got two tacview files if anyone is interested. I didn't even know it was recording.

Dogfight.zip

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Tried this mission two times now.

1st time did not take long to get behind him, and stay behind him. This was actually really fun.

This ended in the Phantom doing a inverted loop, stalling (I think) and crashing when he couldn't recover.

No shots fired in this one, until after he crashed as a victory celebration.

 

2nd time, I also got behind him fast enough. I also (according to tacview), landed a gun round on him once.

This one ended with me depleting my rounds, and later me flaming out and crashing.

 

Got two tacview files if anyone is interested. I didn't even know it was recording.

 

Interesting. I noticed that you kept a very good control of the AoA at all times. Most of the time you were around 17-18 and it never got higher than 26-27 in pressured turns. Could be why you never seemed to suffer catastrophic loss of lift. Gonna have to try out doing relaxed turns to conserve speed.

 

And very nice flying mate. Could almost feel the phantoms frustration. ;)

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