Multi-crew for one huey implemented or not?

[dabomb]

I just don't think I'd like having my face buried in a hot mask, I get sweaty enough as it is in the summer. I imagine VR gear would be unbearable and completely fogged up.)

 

Unless your nose and mouth are located between your eyes, I think you'll be okay as far as fogging goes.

[hansangb]

Yeah, no, I'm on your side and am trying to help.

 

And people who use TrackIR say they can't live without it as well but I've been doing just fine since 1987 without one. At least until I started flying DCS with its poorly implemented keyboard view system. (That also gets interrupted by radio messages! :( )

 

So how do you find the keyboard keys when using VR? That's the paradigm buster, to me. Now, if we had 3D gloves, and the pilot body's hands accurately tracked ours, and there was some kind of haptic feedback to tell you when your finger was over a switch and certain flick actions of your finger to activate/deactivate/turn the control, THEN I'd be interested. But I think that's still a long ways off. And even that has some big problems to solve. What if my real throttle isn't exactly where the virtual one is in 3-space? I'll appear to have a hand floating in the middle of my cockpit where it shouldn't be, getting in the way of my view of instruments and controls. Or perhaps a hand that appears to be going through a cockpit wall.

 

Until then I'll be spending my money on a bigger display. (I'd even consider a 3D one -- do they work with DCS? That plus TrackIR would probably appeal to me a lot more than goggles. I just don't think I'd like having my face buried in a hot mask, I get sweaty enough as it is in the summer. I imagine VR gear would be unbearable and completely fogged up.)

 

Yes, 3D Stereo and (even) projectors work. Icarus, I believe that's the name, makes domes to go with 3D projectors. It uses TrackIR to change the views. But here's the thing. I thought Padlock view in Falcon was da bomb! Then TrackIR happened and it was great. But it still felt a little weak because my brain didn't believe TrackIR. So it was always a hassle to figure out if I was fly west of the hill, and north of the airport after juking and jinking. But with VR, you almost always know where you are because your brain believes you're in the cockpit.

 

And I finally understood what pilots/aviators meant when they say "if you can see it (SAM), you can defeat it" With VR, you can fly the bird while looking at the SAM. You know exactly where you are in 3D space. Again, something you can't do any other way.

 

And peering out to look at the button boxes, keyboards, etc. doesn't break the immersion (not for me, anyway).

 

Add in Vaicom/VoiceAttack and you can interact with JTAC w/o touching your keyboard. It's all, very very very cool. Sure, the resolution could be better, but overall, it's a must buy.

 

And it doesn't help Hannibal at all, but door gunner in VR is fun. As you said, you look at the target and you shoot. More like AH64 guns than boresighted M60s, LOL. I hope Belsimtek implements it. It would be cool to see it in action.

Edited December 29, 2017 by hansangb

[AdmiralQuality]

Unless your nose and mouth are located between your eyes, I think you'll be okay as far as fogging goes.

 

Unless there are ventilation fans mounted in the headset, I'm quite certain I wouldn't.

[AdmiralQuality]

And I finally understood what pilots/aviators meant when they say "if you can see it (SAM), you can defeat it" With VR, you can fly the bird while looking at the SAM. You know exactly where you are in 3D space. Again, something you can't do any other way.

Sorry but the TrackIR people say the same thing. Everybody thinks the way they play is the only way to play. And I don't want or need a padlock view, I see that as cheating. (And we have one already, though most online servers rightly disable it.) All the old flight sims I mentioned had a sensible keypad view system where you could instantly look at any angle it was possible to. And the keypad keys *combined* so you could get in-between angles, unlike DCS's user snap view system. That's all I want but I know I could ask for this until I was blue in the face and just be ignored (and probably ridiculed) so I'm looking into coding something myself to do it.

 

And peering out to look at the button boxes, keyboards, etc. doesn't break the immersion (not for me, anyway).

 

Okay, for you. But I find it hard to imagine how it wouldn't for me.

 

Add in Vaicom/VoiceAttack and you can interact with JTAC w/o touching your keyboard. It's all, very very very cool. Sure, the resolution could be better, but overall, it's a must buy.

 

Another totally unrealistic thing. We don't command real aircraft with our voices. I could see using it to try to talk to the tower and ground-crew, but that's all I'd want to do that for. (And with the radio menus capable of changing their arrangement, I'm not sure that would even be possible to make work in all types of mission/server.)

 

And it doesn't help Hannibal at all, but door gunner in VR is fun. As you said, you look at the target and you shoot. More like AH64 guns than boresighted M60s, LOL. I hope Belsimtek implements it. It would be cool to see it in action.

 

Thanks for confirming that. So the TrackIR interface is currently the best way to interface with it then. We just need a "joystick to TrackIR" utility...

[hannibal]

Edited December 29, 2017 by hannibal

[hansangb]

Sorry but the TrackIR people say the same thing. Everybody thinks the way they play is the only way to play. And I don't want or need a padlock view, I see that as cheating. (And we have one already, though most online servers rightly disable it.) --snippage--

 

I guess the TrackIR and 4K monitor folks don't know what they don't know. IT's not the same *at* all, but that's neither here nor there.

 

Padlock etc. can be considered cheating. What is not cheating is being able to look around just as in real life. Hell, checking six is pretty damn hard with VR.

 

Anyway, my job isn't to convince anyone to go to VR. But it is ABSOLUTELY the future sim'ing. It's more of a jump in "realism" than flying with keyboards to using joysticks. More than monochrome and wireframe to CGA/VGA. Anyway, I'm wandering off the thread.

[AdmiralQuality]

Hell, checking six is pretty damn hard with VR.

 

Did you mean "without VR"? Or do you mean that you literally have to turn your head 180 to do it, as opposed to a much smaller movement with TrackIR or no head movement at all with the keyboard/mouse panning? Sometimes less really is more! :)

 

And if I turn my head 180 with VR gear on, I now have a wire wrapped around my neck. No? (I have wireless headphones. Two pairs, actually. I bought them for collaborating on music with another person but two are also nice as one charges while I use the other.)

[Flagrum]

unfortnately, i have to disagree.

Belsimtek SHOULD HAVE joystick support for guns.

for the DOORGUNS..

which is part of the multiseat position.

which is the point of this thread, having multi-crew for the huey.

which possiblity open doors for future modules for multi-crew type aircraft.

especially the AH-1 Cobra with the gunner co-pilot position.

 

it is GOOD reason.

 

have you played DCS in VR? at all?

BST added two separate axes (horiz./vert.) for the door gunners quite some time ago. I haven't tried it out, yet, but looks as if you are not limited to TrackIR + Mouse anymore.

[AdmiralQuality]

BST added two separate axes (horiz./vert.) for the door gunners quite some time ago. I haven't tried it out, yet, but looks as if you are not limited to TrackIR + Mouse anymore.

 

They're listed in the Controls setup, but the only field you can enter in is the mouse one. Keyboard, Joystick, TrackIR, all no-go.

[hansangb]

Did you mean "without VR"? Or do you mean that you literally have to turn your head 180 to do it, as opposed to a much smaller movement with TrackIR or no head movement at all with the keyboard/mouse panning? Sometimes less really is more! :)

 

And if I turn my head 180 with VR gear on, I now have a wire wrapped around my neck. No? (I have wireless headphones. Two pairs, actually. I bought them for collaborating on music with another person but two are also nice as one charges while I use the other.)

 

 

It's 1 to 1 in VR. And the Field of View is currently about 110 horizontal. So you have to physically turn your head about 100dec or so? to check six. So it really helps to have something to grab onto to help rotate your body. I can't imagine doing it while pulling 7-9 Gs. And real aviators tell me that you can't really move your head while pulling that many Gs. Funny thing is, you often reach out to grab the cockpit thinking it's really there.

 

The cord doesn't really get in the way. I clip the cord to my shoulder and I can move around in my chair w/o getting hung up. It's not like you're spinning around with the goggles on. I suppose if you use the room scale tracking, the cord could be a pain to walk around with. I only use it for flight sims, so it's not an issue.

 

One other thing, because you can sense the speed and height, and you have a much wider vertical field of view, things like landing the Huey and air refueling becomes much much much easier. The lack of depth on a monitor really makes refueling harder than it is. I used to constantly check my instruments to see how fast I was going, how fast I was descending etc. But now, I can just "feel" it like you would in the real word.

 

I thought it was going to be a novelty. Turns out, I was wrong. I use my 34" Asus monitor for setting up controls, etc. I used to have triple 1920x180 and two 8" MFD monitors. They are all gone now. I gave my TrackIR to someone in the forum. There's just no going back to 2D for me. Even though the resolution could be better (DCS on 4K is very pretty), it's still VR or bust for me. But again, not trying to convince anyone to buy a VR HMD. I'm just trying to explain what VR did for me.

Edited December 30, 2017 by hansangb

[hannibal]

BST added two separate axes (horiz./vert.) for the door gunners quite some time ago. I haven't tried it out, yet, but looks as if you are not limited to TrackIR + Mouse anymore.

 

OMG...

you gave me the best news all dayyyyyy!

 

i havent tried UH-1H in a few months being that there were so many updates, and new aircraft modules..

 

im going to install my UH-1H to confirm.

if this is a good, then i will test to see if my idea will work to build the doorgun controls.

and if it does, i draw up plans.

 

but it wont be until if multi-slot /seat implemented for the UH-1 (like the L39) that i will begin constructing.

(it doesnt make sense for me to build a doorgun control without multiseat because i would have to physically get out of my cyclic collective controls and walk over to the door gun setup.. doorgunner needs to be a dedicate multiplayer slot.. )

[AdmiralQuality]

OMG...

you gave me the best news all dayyyyyy!

 

i havent tried UH-1H in a few months being that there were so many updates, and new aircraft modules..

 

im going to install my UH-1H to confirm.

if this is a good, then i will test to see if my idea will work to build the doorgun controls.

and if it does, i draw up plans.

 

but it wont be until if multi-slot /seat implemented for the UH-1 (like the L39) that i will begin constructing.

(it doesnt make sense for me to build a doorgun control without multiseat because i would have to physically get out of my cyclic collective controls and walk over to the door gun setup.. doorgunner needs to be a dedicate multiplayer slot.. )

 

It won't work. Joystick can't be mapped to those parameters. Yet another non-feature.

[hannibal]

It won't work. Joystick can't be mapped to those parameters. Yet another non-feature.

:doh::cry_2::cry_2:

 

yup.

just found that out.

more investigations.

i feel like those axis commands are tied to mouse or trackIR.

just trying to find the stupid .lua files that includes the actual parameters that should be in the input folder.

installed notepad++..

will check back..

[Holton181]

It won't work. Joystick can't be mapped to those parameters. Yet another non-feature.

Just wondering, wouldn't it be possible to do something like funkyfranky have done for the Viggen?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3031175

Even if his work is for buttons, if we have access to analog mouse axes can't we do something similar to be able to map joystick axis to it?

I'm no LUA coder so I don't know what limitations we got here.

[AdmiralQuality]

Just wondering, wouldn't it be possible to do something like funkyfranky have done for the Viggen?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3031175

Even if his work is for buttons, if we have access to analog mouse axes can't we do something similar to be able to map joystick axis to it?

I'm no LUA coder so I don't know what limitations we got here.

 

Mice are relative, joysticks are absolute.

[hannibal]

so close last night. just getting into that doorgunner position and looking at the miniguns is so effin sexy.

 

i just want to be like this guy in DCS VR

[hansangb]

That is very sexy indeed!

[hannibal]

come on belsimtek!

give us the front cockpit co-pilot, and the doorgunner slots for multiplayer!

[PeaceSells]

@hannibal:

 

That is a cool looking door gun you're building, sir!

 

Now about the control within DCS being limited to just mouse or head tracking, I think I understand why Belsimtek/ED did it this way initially... If you think about it, how would someone control the gun with an actual joystick, the gun moves in pitch and yaw while a joystick moves in pitch and roll... this would be way clumsier and more unrealistic than mouse or head tracking, IMO...

 

But now that we have cockpit builders building door guns based on joysticks (or on their potentiometers), having an option to bind door gun movement to joystick axes would make a lot of sense. I do hope Belsimtek / ED includes this, as I suppose it would be very simple to include...

[hannibal]

@hannibal:

 

That is a cool looking door gun you're building, sir!

 

Now about the control within DCS being limited to just mouse or head tracking, I think I understand why Belsimtek/ED did it this way initially... If you think about it, how would someone control the gun with an actual joystick, the gun moves in pitch and yaw while a joystick moves in pitch and roll...

 

this is EXACTLY what i need the doorgun control to do.. to be have as it if it were like the roll and pitch of the flight stick.

 

in the normal sense, a joystick mapped on roll and pitch, the joystick would return to center.

but i need that behavior to happen for the doorgun, because the joystick i will use will have the spring mechanisms removed and that means the joystick would NOT return to center, so that the doorgun will be left where it remains once i release the the joystick.. but if i move the modded joystick to the center, i can have the in game mini gun return to center as well.

I will assume that the curve of the axis assignment pretty much charts out the traversal limits of the doorgun.

 

if i leave it to behave like the mouse, my plan will never work, because there would be drifting of the in game virtual doorgun compared to the physical joystick, where there would be no real means for a center point between the virtual and the physical button. unless there is a centering button, or you drift the virtual gun back to center. (both not ideal)

 

if belsimtek ever decides to implement multiseat for the uh-1h and mi-8tv2.. and belsimtek has a means (other than what i described) to allow cockpit builders to set controls allowing us to bind home built doorguns, i wish this!! and will be even more grateful than what they accomplished so far

Edited December 31, 2017 by hannibal

[Rub-_-]

Guys OFF TOPIC. I want M U L T I C R E W like in Gazelle !!! Before they sell it, they tell us yes we do it and now nobody cares. I never buy a module again from this commercial fakers.

[hannibal]

agreed.

i would like multiplayer multiseat slots as it would be for the Gazelle and L39.

 

well, im hoping that with the release of DCS 2.5, the code structure will be open to great multiplayer multiseat features.

 

if they cant get multiseat / multiplayer for uh-1h and mi8tv2, i am scared of what will be of the hind and cobra.. im already meh on the mi-24p, i was a support of the mi-24v because it has a non-fixed gun turret.

[shagrat]

 

if they cant get multiseat / multiplayer for uh-1h and mi8tv2, i am scared of what will be of the hind and cobra.. im already meh on the mi-24p, i was a support of the mi-24v because it has a non-fixed gun turret.

Same here. With Carrier Ops, especially the LHA-1 added and SoH coming, we need the Cobra!

Without multi seat this will be hairy at least, and I never understood to make the Mi-24P with basically the same "forward only" gun that we already have as a limitation in the Ka-50... I get the caliber argument, but it doesn't matter for me. I want a gunner seat that can operate a turret so I can attack targets without flying head-on into their AAA or MG fire!

[Cibit]

Look at what I found.......

[shagrat]

Look at what I found.......

Yup, WIP... ;)