DCS P-51D Landing Physics and Ground Handling

[Deki]

Gents, I'm starting to think that the reported bouncing problem is a 'non event' and it is probably down to us. I just landed a fully loaded bird (100% internal fuel, 100% ammo) 2 pointer at ~105mph - no bounce. Link to youtube video below.

 

[[DBS]TH0R]

Gents, I'm starting to think that the reported bouncing problem is a 'non event' and it is probably down to us. I just landed a fully loaded bird (100% internal fuel, 100% ammo) 2 pointer at ~105mph - no bounce. Link to youtube video below.

 

 

Nicely done. I agree that it comes down to flight hours in the P-51, the procedures described in this thread are to help those having problems. Once you know what to look out for, you can land on two wheels at speeds closer to the three point landing.

[Talisman_VR]

Gents, I'm starting to think that the reported bouncing problem is a 'non event' and it is probably down to us. I just landed a fully loaded bird (100% internal fuel, 100% ammo) 2 pointer at ~105mph - no bounce. Link to youtube video below.

 

 

Could be. I land at about 100 mph with my FF stick just starting to shake for the stall and it sticks like shit first time on 3 points. Full flaps and plenty of nose up trim too. So I never see the need for 2 wheel landing.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Wheeler landings are for chicks.... Those pilot's who only know how to land a tricycle and desperately try to do the same when faced with a conventional geared machine in their hands :-)

 

Land 3-points! Be Men!!!

Edited October 27, 2015 by jcomm

[Captain Orso]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. A 2-point landing spares the tail wheel from possible damage on a rough landing, and at the cost of repairs, that can be a pretty sum. That's what I've read is why most warbird pilots do only 2-point landings.

[Pman]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. A 2-point landing spares the tail wheel from possible damage on a rough landing, and at the cost of repairs, that can be a pretty sum. That's what I've read is why most warbird pilots do only 2-point landings.

 

Not true for any of the war birds pilots I have spoken to (must be over 50 now)

 

General rule of thumb is 3 wheels on grass and 2 on hard. Although if the pilot has a preference in general its their call for either.

 

3 wheels on grass just gives slightly better control on the immediate seconds after touch in my experience, but mileage will vary.

 

An Example is Dan Friedkin will only ever 3 point an aircraft on grass unless he has no choice but to 2 point it.

 

Pman

[Captain Orso]

I stand corrected. But why 2-wheel on pavement?

[Yo-Yo]

By the way, a wheeler is easier for the lighter airplane and for CoG in its forward position. So, the empty P-51 is better for wheeler because of the mass and the 109 because of forward CoG and mass. The same is for 190. But German planes have larger anti-flip angle, so the larger distance between CoG and main wheels. So, they are harder for 2-point landing.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

By the way, a wheeler is easier for the lighter airplane and for CoG in its forward position. So, the empty P-51 is better for wheeler because of the mass and the 109 because of forward CoG and mass. The same is for 190. But German planes have larger anti-flip angle, so the larger distance between CoG and main wheels. So, they are harder for 2-point landing.

 

Not to mention their inferior directional stability due to the smaller fin & rudder, should the pilot need to steer... With the tailwheel on the ground, and locked, that's a different story...

[Yo-Yo]

This is indeed very interesting and supportive of the indications that a lot of real world pilots have problems with landings in every sim, not just in DCS. I think a big part of this is the fact that in a sim environment we are missing the real world feedback we would be getting from our body and the forces acting on it in every given situation. I wonder though if this is the whole picture or if something in the FM is slightly off. For example I've wondered when the plane touches down in a two-point does the sim take into account the friction of the wheels in relation to the ground?

 

All aspects of ground reaction are taken in account. Even the inertia of the wheel. so, the first touch will be a little bit easier. But, frankly, this help is not highly noticable.

[OnlyforDCS]

All aspects of ground reaction are taken in account. Even the inertia of the wheel. so, the first touch will be a little bit easier. But, frankly, this help is not highly noticable.

Thanks you for the clarification. Good to know. I guess it is indeed all in our heads, or rather in our bodies. The gforces in the cockpit are something that us simmers simply have to learn to do without. :)

 

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk

[Crumpp]

Need to market a Force Feedback seat cushion.....

[Crumpp]

The solution is to center the stick on touchdown for two point landing

 

Are you guys putting a little forward stick into the aircraft on wheel landings?

 

Try that and see if does not eliminate the bouncing.

 

The wheel landing is very easy to make once you get the hang of it. You are basically just flying it onto the ground, touching on the main wheels as gently as possible. Once the main wheels touch, you apply a little forward pressure to the stick/yoke to stop the downward momentum of the CG so the tail does not come down, thus increasing your angle of attack and causing the airplane to fly again. You can even apply enough forward stick/yoke so as to reach a zero or even slightly negative angle of attack to really stick it on the runway. This technique might be useful in gusty conditions.

 

http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing

[Captain Orso]

I'm trying to wheel land without any NH trim. I'm generally not paying so much attention to where the stick is, but if I've managed to touch down ever so gently (1 out if 10 tries) I then check start moving the stick forwards and always find that it has been pulled back a bit, so I'm basically centering it then.

 

The irritating thing is that I'm coming in at about 130-150 and find it odd that I have to pull the stick back to slow my decent and therefore the airframe I assume is not parallel to the ground while I'm touching down, but rather the AOA is slighting nose-up.

[Talisman_VR]

Need to market a Force Feedback seat cushion.....

 

GAMETRIX KW-908 JETSEAT/SimShaker

 

See the Input Output topic threads on this forum.

 

Had mine for a few weeks now and would recommend it.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=134704

 

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited October 29, 2015 by 56RAF_Talisman

[Crumpp]

I'm trying to wheel land without any NH trim. I'm generally not paying so much attention to where the stick is, but if I've managed to touch down ever so gently (1 out if 10 tries) I then check start moving the stick forwards and always find that it has been pulled back a bit, so I'm basically centering it then.

 

The irritating thing is that I'm coming in at about 130-150 and find it odd that I have to pull the stick back to slow my decent and therefore the airframe I assume is not parallel to the ground while I'm touching down, but rather the AOA is slighting nose-up.

 

The P-51 is bouncy and likes to float, that is a fact. I am out of practice so it took me three times to do it without bouncing. I did a nice wheel landing and was going to post the track but the DCS 1.5 track bug just shows a fireball, LOL.

 

The FW-190 does nice wheelers, btw. Much easier to get a nice one than the P-51.

 

Wheel landings are fast compared to a 3 pointer.

 

It does not really matter what your trim is set too or if the aircraft is parallel to the ground. In fact it will not be because the speed should be too slow and the AoA high.

 

Fly the plane to the runway, let the mains settle, and as soon as they touch, move the stick slightly forward to pin the mains to the runways.

 

As the plane slows, move the stick back. Rudder for directional control until the speed bleeds off and then transition to the brakes.

 

You should be fully stick back by the time the tail settles to the ground. A wheel landing simply takes more runway and is not short field technique. The P-51 has a steerable tailwheel so once it is on the ground you can use it for directional control.

 

It is a dance compared to a tricycle gear aircraft.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Crumpp
Tried to make a track

[Tomsk]

Was just going to give a follow up to this and a big thanks to T}{OR. For ages wheel landings were a scary thing I avoided. Now they are definitely my preferred way to land. At first I could only get them to work in narrow circumstances. Speed had to be near 150mph, trim had to be right, I had to touch down very fine to avoid the bounce and it usually required a lot of runway. But practice makes perfect and now I can do them at 100mph, basically throwing them into the ground, using any vaguely sensible trim and get a nice short roll out. Overall I much prefer the wheel landing now, better visibility and avoids the risks of misjudging the height and stalling too high that 3 pointers are prone too. Not that I find 3 pointers very hard, but most of the time I'll take the wheelie :-)

[Tomsk]

I'm trying to wheel land without any NH trim. I'm generally not paying so much attention to where the stick is, but if I've managed to touch down ever so gently (1 out if 10 tries) I then check start moving the stick forwards and always find that it has been pulled back a bit, so I'm basically centering it then.

 

The irritating thing is that I'm coming in at about 130-150 and find it odd that I have to pull the stick back to slow my decent and therefore the airframe I assume is not parallel to the ground while I'm touching down, but rather the AOA is slighting nose-up.

 

So I had the same experience at first, I had to land fast and very very 'fine' to get it to work. But with practice I've found you can make it work at a variety of speeds and even when plonking into the ground a bit hard. The key is pushing the stick forward. Come down and be ready for the wheels to touch, when they do immediately push the stick forward. Give it a harder shove at first to get it to stick, but then quickly reduce forward pressure a bit to just hold the nose down. The harder you hit the ground the bigger that initial shove needs to be.

 

When you can do that consistently I've found you can make 2.5 point landings (as I like to think of them). In a normal 3 point you'd hold it off inches from the ground until it stalls into the runway. With a 2.5 point landing you chop throttle at the threshold but then plop 2 wheels onto the ground and hold them there shortly before it runs out of speed and the tail drops. Looks like 2 wheeler with a very short time on two wheels, or a three pointer where you don't hold it inches above the runway you plant the front wheels instead. I almost always do this now rather than 3 point it because the timing is less critical, the risk with 3 pointers for me is misjudging the height above ground and stalling too high. The 2.5 point avoids that risk, but has just as short a roll as a normal 3 pointer.