Jump to content

Mig21 and fighter maneuverability in todays terms


Dirty Rotten Flieger
 Share

Recommended Posts

Stumbled on this, fascinating read.

 

 

http://www.slideshare.net/mishanbgd/mi-g-21-and-fighter-maneuverability-in-todays-terms

 

This article says the MIg21 is good at slow speeds and high angles of attack! WTF! Apparently I've been doing it wrong.

 

Well I just tried some dogfights, gun only vs the phantom and instead of keeping my energy up which is what I would have been doing, I tried to slow down and maintain high alpha and use rudder to roll avoiding aileron input. It works... phantom is childs play to shoot down.

Tried the F16A, F15, Mig29... all on excellent skill and shot them all down without too much trouble.

 

Yesterday I was trying to stay fast keep my E up in gunfight and I couldn't beat he F16A after 5 attempts.

 

I just didn't think the Mig21 could fly like this . Let alone fly well


Edited by Dirty Rotten Flieger
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's odd, because I can't get this thing to turn at any acceptable rate for combat whenever I'm below 4/500km/h.

This post is protected by a pilot who has a serious lack of negotiating skills, but is absolute hell in a dogfight. If you do not belong here, please leave.

 

You have now been properly negotiated with.

 

MiG-29S Instant Action Mission Fix

Come check out and add to my list of all landmarks in DCS World!

^that works now

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The article suggested flying at 100 knots, or even less. I think it's a big exaggerated. The MiG should (and does) bleed speed at low speeds, which is not good.

[sIGPIC]http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk187/Exorcet/F-15singaturebaseACOmodifiedcomp-1.jpg[/sIGPIC]

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The article suggested flying at 100 knots, or even less. I think it's a big exaggerated. The MiG should (and does) bleed speed at low speeds, which is not good.

 

 

Wow, that's pretty much impossible to my knowledge- touchdown speed is about 190kts......pretty sure the Mig-21 would be doing its best lawn dart impression (or possibly falling mattress) at 100kts.

 

 

 

EDIT: Ok, looked at the article- that seems to be a pretty specific set of maneuvers exploiting the stall characteristics of the plane. Would love to try that in game but I don't think I have the chops for the precision!


Edited by arriflex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally understand any skepticism. I found it hard to believe when I read it.

 

Here is a track file of a dog fight. Mig21bis vs F16C and F15C both on excellent skill.

 

I don't start to maneuver till they are both pulling onto my six. I shoot them both while I am indicating about 300km/h and there are times in the fight I am indicating almost as low as 200km/h .

 

My esteem of the little Mig has grown quite a lot in the last day. It is just so counterintuitive that it can fly like this when landing speed is 340km/h.

Mig21bisSlowspeedHiAlpha1.trk


Edited by Dirty Rotten Flieger
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love the MiG. It's such a scruffy-looking and weirdly designed plane, you know like

"oh look, someone's spilled red paint on the stick."

"If I want to turn off my radar filters I have to unlock my target?"

"You stick the canopy anti-ice switch in my face but I have to go heads down to engage radar fixed beam mode?"

 

But then, surprisingly, it's just a really good little aircraft! I love it.

Win10 x64 | SSDs | i5 2500K @ 4.4 GHz | 16 GB RAM | GTX 970 | TM Warthog HOTAS | Saitek pedals | TIR5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah I've been pretty intrigued by it. It has a ton of quirks. But I do agree with the low speed handling. For an aircraft that has to have a BLC system and high approach speeds just to keep from being a lead brick, it sure has a ton of controllability at such low speeds.

 

But still I believe that if an f15 gets that slow with a mig, the f15 pilot probably did something wrong.

 

Regardless my best fights against human piloted fighters has been to just suprise them as best as you can. Extremely difficult to do, but in have managed to get lucky a few times. I have had decent luck when coordinating with another 21 or two against modern fighters. Just need to use good tactics and force the f15 or su27 into a compromising situation.

 

I have also had luck protecting a10s by laying low and having them use their rwr to help guide you to find the enemys

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah I've been pretty intrigued by it. It has a ton of quirks. But I do agree with the low speed handling. For an aircraft that has to have a BLC system and high approach speeds just to keep from being a lead brick, it sure has a ton of controllability at such low speeds.

 

The unintuitive part may be that maneuvering in the air doesn't have the same restrictions as landing. You can do very high AoA in the air without problems, but when landing you need sufficient lift to reduce vertical speed to a safe rate without so much AoA that the tail hits the ground first. And you need to see where you're going.

 

(Alternative solution: very high landing gear and a mechanism to move the nose out of the way for better visibility * – like the Concorde.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys are nuts if you think a Mig 21 can turn at low speeds with modern fighters like the Eagle F-16, or Flanker. Not in this game, and not in real life.

Definitely.

 

With Fishbed you don´t want to get into "turning fight" with those things..

 

Isn't mig21 designed to be an interceptor rather than a dogfighter?

 

And after flyin Mig-21 in dcs, The Su-25 feels like a sailplane! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vortex lift -> A delta wing will fly at high angles of attack and slow speeds, where a normal wing will stall.

 

The practical use is limited though, as it comes at a steep drag penalty. Use it for instantaneous turn rate, but know that it will cost you your precious energy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats why I posted the track. lol! 2v1 excellent F15c and F16C Vs Mig21. shot em both at low speed

 

Yes but just because they are set to excellent, does not make them smarter AI....I can post countless tracks during mission making when AI set on excellent fly into each other when making a turn on a waypoint. Or one flies into a mountain when in formation if 1 is landing and the other can't think for itself.

 

This can be proven on all pilot skill levels for AI.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree Human pilot wont be drawn into slow speed flight where the mig21 shines. But I think the point we were talking about is if the Mig can hang with the modern fighters at slow speeds and high alpha. The USAF test pilots seemed to think it could give them a surprisingly good challenge.

 

I was skeptical when I read this because I had never tried it and my impression of the mig21 was that it was high speed high alt, and it would be suicide to try to slow down and turn fight...

When I actually tried it against AI I found out that those test pilots have a point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys are nuts if you think a Mig 21 can turn at low speeds with modern fighters like the Eagle F-16, or Flanker. Not in this game, and not in real life.

 

It can and it out turns amongst a good few others, the F-15, a fact specifically tested and confirmed by the USAF.

Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career?

Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

'....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell....

One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys are nuts if you think a Mig 21 can turn at low speeds with modern fighters like the Eagle F-16, or Flanker. Not in this game, and not in real life.

 

Real life says MiG-21 can turn and fight with an F-16 without problems.

 

MiG-21-93 "Bison" gave the F-16 a run for its money in an exercise in 2005. The F-16 pilots thought it would be a walk in the park for them. Nope... F-16 got kicked.

 

It's not about low speed either - the F-16 is just as bad at 200 kts as the MiG. It's a bogus argument - the F-16 will be keeping its speed up as much as the MiG will, for exactly the same reason - maneuverability. If the speed does tank during the fight, both jets are in a bad position.

 

Considering when the MiG was designed (1950s) it was one hell of an aircraft. Keeping up with a jet 20 years newer (and designed to counter it) is no small task. Just proves that if you get the basic design right, it'll keep on going. F-16 will be pretty hard to beat, too, design wise.

 

http://www.indiadefence.com/COPE.htm

 

While the superb performances of IAF Sukhoi-30s were somewhat anticipated, the performance of MiG-21Bison came as a major “unpleasant surprise” to the USAF officials. It also validates the claim of the Russian officials that they are capable of successfully converting “second generation” late-model MiG-21bis fighters to “fourth generation combat platforms”. Inherently the significant positive attributes enjoyed by MiG-21s were their dog fighting ability in WVR (Within Visual Range) combat. Even the earlier models had a low corner velocity of 556 kilometres per hour and at Mach 0.5 had an instantaneous turn rate of 11.1 degrees per second. The MiG-21Bison with more powerful R-25 engines not only considerably bettered this performance but it may also be credited with “jackrabbit” acceleration, a very critical attribute in WVR combat.

 

Best regards,

Tango.


Edited by Tango
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am surprised...The thrust to weight ratio is so much better for the F16, I do not see how the Mig 21 could even keep up in a vertical fight:huh:

Ask Jesus for Forgiveness before you takeoff :pilotfly:!

PC=Win 10 HP 64 bit, Gigabyte Z390, Intel I5-9600k, 32 gig ram, Nvidia 2060 Super 8gig video. TM HOTAS WARTHOG with Saitek Pedals

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mig-21Bison success against F-15C in Cope India wasn't so much about maneuverability but lack of AWACS for the F-15C while Mig-21Bisons were vectored by AWACS and had three times the numbers of Eagles. If you look sustained turn rate charts you can see that Mig-21 is a clear loser against F-15/16/18 in a prolonged turning fight.

DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community

--------------------------------------------------

SF Squadron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...