Dirty Rotten Flieger Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) Stumbled on this, fascinating read. http://www.slideshare.net/mishanbgd/mi-g-21-and-fighter-maneuverability-in-todays-terms This article says the MIg21 is good at slow speeds and high angles of attack! WTF! Apparently I've been doing it wrong. Well I just tried some dogfights, gun only vs the phantom and instead of keeping my energy up which is what I would have been doing, I tried to slow down and maintain high alpha and use rudder to roll avoiding aileron input. It works... phantom is childs play to shoot down. Tried the F16A, F15, Mig29... all on excellent skill and shot them all down without too much trouble. Yesterday I was trying to stay fast keep my E up in gunfight and I couldn't beat he F16A after 5 attempts. I just didn't think the Mig21 could fly like this . Let alone fly well Edited September 22, 2014 by Dirty Rotten Flieger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serp Supreme Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 That's odd, because I can't get this thing to turn at any acceptable rate for combat whenever I'm below 4/500km/h. This post is protected by a pilot who has a serious lack of negotiating skills, but is absolute hell in a dogfight. If you do not belong here, please leave. You have now been properly negotiated with. MiG-29S Instant Action Mission Fix Come check out and add to my list of all landmarks in DCS World! ^that works now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arriflex Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 That's odd, because I can't get this thing to turn at any acceptable rate for combat whenever I'm below 4/500km/h. 500kmh is only around 270kts.......which is pretty slow for most fast jets already. Ideal turning speed for an F-15 is up around 350-400 IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 The article suggested flying at 100 knots, or even less. I think it's a big exaggerated. The MiG should (and does) bleed speed at low speeds, which is not good. Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arriflex Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) The article suggested flying at 100 knots, or even less. I think it's a big exaggerated. The MiG should (and does) bleed speed at low speeds, which is not good. Wow, that's pretty much impossible to my knowledge- touchdown speed is about 190kts......pretty sure the Mig-21 would be doing its best lawn dart impression (or possibly falling mattress) at 100kts. EDIT: Ok, looked at the article- that seems to be a pretty specific set of maneuvers exploiting the stall characteristics of the plane. Would love to try that in game but I don't think I have the chops for the precision! Edited September 23, 2014 by arriflex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EduSCA Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 off topic but I noticed on page 4: Cockpit Noise - Extremely Low - makes sense now:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin_Hood Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Wow, that's pretty much impossible to my knowledge- touchdown speed is about 190kts......pretty sure the Mig-21 would be doing its best lawn dart impression (or possibly falling mattress) at 100kts. Actually touchdown speed is more like 150 kts. Still a long way from 100 kts, though. 2nd French Fighter Squadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Rotten Flieger Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) I totally understand any skepticism. I found it hard to believe when I read it. Here is a track file of a dog fight. Mig21bis vs F16C and F15C both on excellent skill. I don't start to maneuver till they are both pulling onto my six. I shoot them both while I am indicating about 300km/h and there are times in the fight I am indicating almost as low as 200km/h . My esteem of the little Mig has grown quite a lot in the last day. It is just so counterintuitive that it can fly like this when landing speed is 340km/h.Mig21bisSlowspeedHiAlpha1.trk Edited September 23, 2014 by Dirty Rotten Flieger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrigan Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 I love the MiG. It's such a scruffy-looking and weirdly designed plane, you know like "oh look, someone's spilled red paint on the stick." "If I want to turn off my radar filters I have to unlock my target?" "You stick the canopy anti-ice switch in my face but I have to go heads down to engage radar fixed beam mode?" But then, surprisingly, it's just a really good little aircraft! I love it. Win10 x64 | SSDs | i5 2500K @ 4.4 GHz | 16 GB RAM | GTX 970 | TM Warthog HOTAS | Saitek pedals | TIR5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff4life4 Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Yeah I've been pretty intrigued by it. It has a ton of quirks. But I do agree with the low speed handling. For an aircraft that has to have a BLC system and high approach speeds just to keep from being a lead brick, it sure has a ton of controllability at such low speeds. But still I believe that if an f15 gets that slow with a mig, the f15 pilot probably did something wrong. Regardless my best fights against human piloted fighters has been to just suprise them as best as you can. Extremely difficult to do, but in have managed to get lucky a few times. I have had decent luck when coordinating with another 21 or two against modern fighters. Just need to use good tactics and force the f15 or su27 into a compromising situation. I have also had luck protecting a10s by laying low and having them use their rwr to help guide you to find the enemys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 @Corrigan For some reason i laughed harder than i should at your post :lol: Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Yeah I've been pretty intrigued by it. It has a ton of quirks. But I do agree with the low speed handling. For an aircraft that has to have a BLC system and high approach speeds just to keep from being a lead brick, it sure has a ton of controllability at such low speeds. The unintuitive part may be that maneuvering in the air doesn't have the same restrictions as landing. You can do very high AoA in the air without problems, but when landing you need sufficient lift to reduce vertical speed to a safe rate without so much AoA that the tail hits the ground first. And you need to see where you're going. (Alternative solution: very high landing gear and a mechanism to move the nose out of the way for better visibility * – like the Concorde.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theGozr Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) The aircraft as we have now sink a bit too much. something is little bit off. Edited September 23, 2014 by theGozr Fly it like you stole it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USARStarkey Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 You guys are nuts if you think a Mig 21 can turn at low speeds with modern fighters like the Eagle F-16, or Flanker. Not in this game, and not in real life. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]Weed Be gone Needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kripzoo Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 You guys are nuts if you think a Mig 21 can turn at low speeds with modern fighters like the Eagle F-16, or Flanker. Not in this game, and not in real life. Definitely. With Fishbed you don´t want to get into "turning fight" with those things.. Isn't mig21 designed to be an interceptor rather than a dogfighter? And after flyin Mig-21 in dcs, The Su-25 feels like a sailplane! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effte Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Vortex lift -> A delta wing will fly at high angles of attack and slow speeds, where a normal wing will stall. The practical use is limited though, as it comes at a steep drag penalty. Use it for instantaneous turn rate, but know that it will cost you your precious energy. ----- Introduction to UTM/MGRS - Trying to get your head around what trim is, how it works and how to use it? - DCS helos vs the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Rotten Flieger Posted September 24, 2014 Author Share Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) You guys are nuts if you think a Mig 21 can turn at low speeds with modern fighters like the Eagle F-16, or Flanker. Not in this game, and not in real life. Thats why I posted the track. lol! 2v1 excellent F15c and F16C Vs Mig21. shot em both at low speed Edited September 24, 2014 by Dirty Rotten Flieger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winfield_Gold Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Thats why I posted the track. lol! 2v1 excellent F15c and F16C Vs Mig21. shot em both at low speed Yes but just because they are set to excellent, does not make them smarter AI....I can post countless tracks during mission making when AI set on excellent fly into each other when making a turn on a waypoint. Or one flies into a mountain when in formation if 1 is landing and the other can't think for itself. This can be proven on all pilot skill levels for AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Rotten Flieger Posted September 24, 2014 Author Share Posted September 24, 2014 I agree Human pilot wont be drawn into slow speed flight where the mig21 shines. But I think the point we were talking about is if the Mig can hang with the modern fighters at slow speeds and high alpha. The USAF test pilots seemed to think it could give them a surprisingly good challenge. I was skeptical when I read this because I had never tried it and my impression of the mig21 was that it was high speed high alt, and it would be suicide to try to slow down and turn fight... When I actually tried it against AI I found out that those test pilots have a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 You guys are nuts if you think a Mig 21 can turn at low speeds with modern fighters like the Eagle F-16, or Flanker. Not in this game, and not in real life. It can and it out turns amongst a good few others, the F-15, a fact specifically tested and confirmed by the USAF. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) You guys are nuts if you think a Mig 21 can turn at low speeds with modern fighters like the Eagle F-16, or Flanker. Not in this game, and not in real life. Real life says MiG-21 can turn and fight with an F-16 without problems. MiG-21-93 "Bison" gave the F-16 a run for its money in an exercise in 2005. The F-16 pilots thought it would be a walk in the park for them. Nope... F-16 got kicked. It's not about low speed either - the F-16 is just as bad at 200 kts as the MiG. It's a bogus argument - the F-16 will be keeping its speed up as much as the MiG will, for exactly the same reason - maneuverability. If the speed does tank during the fight, both jets are in a bad position. Considering when the MiG was designed (1950s) it was one hell of an aircraft. Keeping up with a jet 20 years newer (and designed to counter it) is no small task. Just proves that if you get the basic design right, it'll keep on going. F-16 will be pretty hard to beat, too, design wise. http://www.indiadefence.com/COPE.htm While the superb performances of IAF Sukhoi-30s were somewhat anticipated, the performance of MiG-21Bison came as a major “unpleasant surprise” to the USAF officials. It also validates the claim of the Russian officials that they are capable of successfully converting “second generation” late-model MiG-21bis fighters to “fourth generation combat platforms”. Inherently the significant positive attributes enjoyed by MiG-21s were their dog fighting ability in WVR (Within Visual Range) combat. Even the earlier models had a low corner velocity of 556 kilometres per hour and at Mach 0.5 had an instantaneous turn rate of 11.1 degrees per second. The MiG-21Bison with more powerful R-25 engines not only considerably bettered this performance but it may also be credited with “jackrabbit” acceleration, a very critical attribute in WVR combat. Best regards, Tango. Edited September 24, 2014 by Tango Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Case Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 http://www.masterarms.se A Swedish Combat Flight Simulator Community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Link added to my previous post. Best regards, Tango. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tusler Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 I am surprised...The thrust to weight ratio is so much better for the F16, I do not see how the Mig 21 could even keep up in a vertical fight:huh: Ask Jesus for Forgiveness before you takeoff :pilotfly:! PC=Win 10 HP 64 bit, Gigabyte Z390, Intel I5-9600k, 32 gig ram, Nvidia 2060 Super 8gig video. TM HOTAS WARTHOG with Saitek Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushmanni Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Mig-21Bison success against F-15C in Cope India wasn't so much about maneuverability but lack of AWACS for the F-15C while Mig-21Bisons were vectored by AWACS and had three times the numbers of Eagles. If you look sustained turn rate charts you can see that Mig-21 is a clear loser against F-15/16/18 in a prolonged turning fight. DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community -------------------------------------------------- SF Squadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts