Changing the HUD elements size

[Wizard1393]

Hi all,

 

Something I've been pondering about.

When I sit in the A-10C cockpit and look straight down, I notice that my head is actually almost so far forward the I'm practically beyond the seat.

 

I know I can move the head position back so I'm at where the pilots head would actually be, sitting correctly in the seat. When I do this, most of the HUD elements are outside of the HUD frame.

 

This cannot be right, right?

 

Seems as the HUD elements/fonts size is adjusted for a pilot head pressed up against the HUD, to be able to see all HUD elements.

 

Is there any way of decreasing the overall size of the HUD elements to allow seeing all of it with the head position sitting in the "correct" place"?

 

I understand doing this will make the elements rather small, maybe too small to be readable. But I'd like to try, and maybe it won't be possible to do it with "normal" head position but maybe at least half-way from default to normal position.

 

I've searched the forums for this and there seems to have been previous discussion about this. Even found a mod that modifies the font size of the HUD by fiddling with the "Old_K" / "New_K" values of HUD_definitions.lua.

It's not that I want to decrease the font size. I would want to decrease the entire "HUD element / area" to fit the HUD when head position is in it's correct position.

 

I understand this would also mean that when leaning in close to the HUD, the HUD elements would still appear small, like only take up e.g 1/4 of the HUD glass.

Edited September 26, 2014 by chrisofsweden
Clarification

[QuiGon]

Maybe you're just zoomed in? You can zoom in/out with the * and / keys on the numpad. The Enter key on the numpad will reset the zoom.

[Wizard1393]

Maybe you're just zoomed in? You can zoom in/out with the * and / keys on the numpad. The Enter key on the numpad will reset the zoom.

 

No that's not it.

[MadDog-IC]

Hi all,

 

Something I've been pondering about.

When I sit in the A-10C cockpit and look straight down, I notice that my head is actually almost so far forward the I'm practically beyond the seat.

 

I know I can move the head position back so I'm at where the pilots head would actually be, sitting correctly in the seat. When I do this, most of the HUD elements are outside of the HUD frame.

 

This cannot be right, right?

 

Seems as the HUD elements/fonts size is adjusted for a pilot head pressed up against the HUD, to be able to see all HUD elements.

 

Is there any way of decreasing the overall size of the HUD elements to allow seeing all of it with the head position sitting in the "correct" place"?

 

I understand doing this will make the elements rather small, maybe too small to be readable. But I'd like to try, and maybe it won't be possible to do it with "normal" head position but maybe at least half-way from default to normal position.

 

Anyone else ever thought of this?

 

+1 for me

 

This has been discussed before and a many fellow forum users have stated it is working as it should ie Read up on - colliminated huds, I am no expert and I also need to be educated like I was a 5 year old as to why I have to sit in a position were the flight joystick would be positioned up my butt to be able to see all of the HUD Display correctly.

 

Huds should be easily readable / usable with you sitting far back in your seat with your head resting on the seats head rest, after all this is were you would pilot from in real life, so you could monitor you cockpit guages and have good situation awareness.

 

I have played endlessly with snapviews, default view using both the track-ir camera zoom in and out and normal FOV zoom.

 

Every cockpit proportion only looks correct to me when I have fully pressed R-ctrl+R-Shift+numpad/ to put my virtual body/head right back into the seat, Then used Numpad/ and Numpad-* to position the normal zoom FOV to about halfway or 80-100 degrees (this for my Single Screen Setup).

 

IF you look behind, you can see you are firmly resting you head on the head rest, when you look down, you can view all side panels easily, and not have half of them positioned behind you, when you look left /right there is also no cockpit / view distortions whilst changing point of view.

 

But in this position the HUD has scaled to the point that you can only see one or two altitude markers, thus making the whole HUD USELESS whilst at this position.

 

It seems that to use the collminated HUDS properly, that you have a set eyepoint position, where you have to place you eyes a certain distance from the glass to see the image in it entirety. Therefore you must either simulate leaning forward from the waist or slip you seat forward to position yourself closer to the HUD, ie R-ctrl+R-Shift+numpad* or lean forward with TrackIR.

 

This is how it works at the moment, but like you I can't believe that by sitting in the correct seating position of real life that the HUD has no use what so ever.

 

Regards, Ian

[Blooze]

I am another that has seen the default view as being inconsistant with what a real A10- pilot's would be and haven't yet figured out how to get the HUD text size adjusted accordingly after getting my seat position adjusted. What I don't understand is if you decrease the number in line 5 of the definitions lua file to increase the size of the text, why doesn't the text size decrease when you raise the same number above the default 73.5? It's as though it is capped at 73.5 regardless of what changes I make above that.

[Flagrum]

You just can not expect to see a distortion free image if you try to squeeze what you would see naturally with a FoV of 170(?) deg. into a computer monitor which physically, due to it's dimensions, allows you only for a FoV of maybe 60 deg.

 

To keep a natural, distortion free image, i.e. your virtual FoV matches the real FoV of 60 deg. then it appears as if your nose almost touches the UFC - an optical illusion imo due to the lack of peripheral vision in this case.

 

There will always a compromise to be made - with the current hardware.

[Cibit]

Any mods to make it easier to see when flying normally? I can never read my HUD for the glare. Was never as bad in the beta versions. The only time its clear is on a strafing run when the ground is darker than the HUD?

[Wizard1393]

Thanks for your answers guys. Yes, I read one of the lengthier threads on this topic now, http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=68821 and it became more clear to me.

 

As I understand it, if we really could shrink the size of the HUD Elements to be able to view all of it at the correct head position, then, when we would lean in, we would also see a huge HUD frame but with a tiny HUD "picture" in the middle of it.

 

 

Is it really confirmed fact, that IRL, most of the HUD is obscured when the pilot sits in a natural position?

Do they really lean in alot to see all of it?

Edited September 26, 2014 by chrisofsweden

[PFunk1606688187]

One thing to note is that DCS doesn't model eye position, it models head position with an eye smack dab in the middle of it. This either is affecting how you're perceiving your position or it affected how they chose to model the module.

[effte]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2168310&postcount=17

 

What a few rather vocal people seem to fail to grasp is that the eye point in a modern cockpit is not really more arbitrary than, say, the position of the canopy railings.

 

The eye box, in which you are to have your eyes when using the HUD, is in the drawings. It is typically not an overly large box. Considering the primary customer for the DCS product, I think it is safe to assume that ED had access to those drawings for making the 3D model and for placing the virtual eye point in the cockpit.

 

Hence, it is not exactly a point open for debate. It is what it is. You may want to modify it to suit your taste, but you should do so well aware that you are moving away from reality and will have to suffer the consequences.

 

The eye box in the A-10C is where your eyes end up when you are leaning into the sight for taking a shot. The HUD is not your primary reference for flying around, but more akin to a gun sight. If you lean your head back, which you may do for cruise or for scanning for targets off the nose, you are moving out of the eye box and will probably not see all of the symbology.

 

Yes, the cockpit will feel cramped with your virtual head properly positioned for HUD use. In part due to the above, but probably more due to the narrov field of view offered by our hardware. Increasing the FOV helps (but, unfortunately, comes with a stiff visibility penalty at distance in DCS), as does a widescreen monitor. Personally, I have the longitudinal head position on the slider of the Warthog while using TrackIR Z for zoom, with a slightly wider than default FOV. Works quite well, even though it doesn't help the poor visibility of other aircrafts (which is another debate going on at lenght in these fora).

[Blaze]

One thing to note is that DCS doesn't model eye position, it models head position with an eye smack dab in the middle of it. This either is affecting how you're perceiving your position or it affected how they chose to model the module.

 

Eye position is modeled, in fact, as well as shoulders to shift the view when looking over your shoulder.

[Corrigan]

Eye position is modeled, in fact, as well as shoulders to shift the view when looking over your shoulder.

 

The pilot in the game still only has one eye, though. That can make a difference for things like HUD elements being outside the frames, etc.

[PFunk1606688187]

Eye position is modeled, in fact, as well as shoulders to shift the view when looking over your shoulder.

 

The PeterP eye position mod pretty much covers anything I can say to this. The shoulder code that was added is nice, but not exhaustive in addressing the deficiencies with respect to reality.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=96116

[camsr]

FOV is important. 60 degrees monitor FOV is about what I have, but I still have my default game FOV somewhat wider, to compensate for lack of peripheral vision I guess. I actually find the game to look quite good at that FOV. A few decisions had to be made as to visibility of the MFCDs in the default view, so head position had to be moved up. I think it's too low by the default setting. The compromise was not being able to see the airspeed meter on the front panel.

[DayGlow]

The pilot in the game still only has one eye, though. That can make a difference for things like HUD elements being outside the frames, etc.

 

I think this is a major consideration. Binocular vision would expand the visible HUD and your brain would fill in the blanks between the eyes. Your left eye would see what is obscured by the HUD frame for your right eye and the opposite. Your brain would then put it together and you would see beyond the HUD frame in a sense.

[Corrigan]

I think this is a major consideration. Binocular vision would expand the visible HUD and your brain would fill in the blanks between the eyes. Your left eye would see what is obscured by the HUD frame for your right eye and the opposite. Your brain would then put it together and you would see beyond the HUD frame in a sense.

 

Yep, this is what I was referring to. The distances we're considering could well be such (distance to hud is maybe 10 times the distance between the eyes) that this makes an important difference.

[StrongHarm]

I think they're going to have to address the HUD ratio, resolution, and perspective for the Oculus anyway. Maybe we can provide the devs with some conclusive points on how the HUD diverges from a realistic and/or usable view to give them some preemptive intel.

 

Can you weigh in on this Snoopy.. are you still Crew Chief on the Warthog? Maybe you could speak with a pilot about any challenges they have with the HUD? A few pictures from different positions and perspectives would rock if you can get authorization and you can find the time. If nothing else maybe with the HUD test text showing?

[WildBillKelsoe]

I'll comment that maybe (maybe) pilots just use instruments like vvi, altimeter, and ias gauges when flying. Then on attacks they also use these but on rollout they just stick their nose into hud?

[Snoopy]

Can you weigh in on this Snoopy.. are you still Crew Chief on the Warthog? Maybe you could speak with a pilot about any challenges they have with the HUD? A few pictures from different positions and perspectives would rock if you can get authorization and you can find the time. If nothing else maybe with the HUD test text showing?

 

I am but pictures likely won't happen.

[StrongHarm]

Awesome, thanks Snoopy! Conclusive information instead of conjecture is always good. Perhaps you can look at the HUD from different perspectives and describe whether the theories in this thread are correct since pics are unlikely. The more information the better. Sorry to trouble you with this. I know you're probably busy as hell, but the HUD is arguably the most important object in the sim to render accurately since we view it more than anything else while in flight.. and I'm hoping they'll make some corrections when they update it for Oculus.

[effte]

I'll comment that maybe (maybe) pilots just use instruments like vvi, altimeter, and ias gauges when flying. Then on attacks they also use these but on rollout they just stick their nose into hud?

 

Right you are.

 

The HUD is not a primary flight instrument, and should not be used as a substitute for the airspeed indicator and altimeter for takeoff and landing.

 

In the A-10, even the C, it's essentially a gun sight with SA help added. The gauges are still the primary reference when flying. Certifying a HUD as a primary flight instruments adds whole new levels of complexity to the certification process.

[effte]

... we view it more than anything else while in flight...

 

And that's probably the problem for a lot of virtual aviators - overreliance on the HUD as their primary (or only) flight instrument. It's an easy trap to fall into, as it really aids in the transition from real life to the confines of a computer monitor.

 

Solution: Have your virtual alter ego lean back, fly using primary instruments (i e the gauges) and use the gun sight (HUD) for weapons delivery.

[StrongHarm]

What I mean is.. if you're looking out of the cockpit.. chances are you're seeing the HUD predominately. It's frequently viewed so requires appropriate attention. These are warplanes and there's nothing more important than situational awareness (eyes up is the reason they place appropriate data in the HUD). I'm sure that if ED plans to make adjustments, they'll have the access and talent they need to make it happen, they're fairly sierra hotel.. but if we gather some conclusive information for them it may be further incentive.

[JellybeanTiger]

Struggling reading the hud as well.

 

Need a 100 inch monitor lol.

 

Even with track ir,it is hard to read.

[Deadman]

Raise a thread from the dead wow