How do I orbit without getting masked?

[Dudester22]

Can someone tell me if its possible to orbit without getting masked? The problem I'm having is finding moving targets and then losing them because I have been masked while I'm orbiting. I am setting these targets up for a laser guided bomb.

 

I would also like to know when it's best to use INR track? I'm a bit unsure what this mode does. Does it continue to track moving targets even after they have been masked or something? Thanks!

[ff4life4]

For me, I will always have the TGP hanging off to my right side. In order to prevent masking, you really need to be at a higher altitude (for me) >15,000FT, and need to be in a fairly wide orbit around the target.

 

You need to be careful not to dip the wing downward too much on the right side (can't make a high bank angle to the right side). I always orbit in like a typical Nascar racetrack, with 2 straight aways, and then two turns on each end (except I'm turning right not left.) It can be tricky, but its something that I have gotten better with overtime. You will eventually just "learn" how you have to limit your banking, and how wide you have to be in order to not have the TGP get masked.

 

When I go for a bomb drop, I will wait until im in one of my "straightaways" and then slightly turn more into the target, drop, then I will usually go left immediately afterward by 30 degrees, then wait for spacing, and then go back into a right turn as steep as I can without dipping the wing into the line of sight. Then I will either go back into an orbit, or set myself up for another drop.

 

The key is be shallow on your turns, and always try to keep the target between your 1 and 5 o clock position

 

Edit:

For practice. Find an airfield, which is stationary, and try to always keep it within line of sight on your target pod. Start with this first, Experiement how wide, and how steep your turns need to be to prevent masking.

 

Then set up a long convoy to follow an easy to find road network. Then just practice keeping a unit in sight, as you go about the racetrack.

 

For stationary targets, a circular orbit works okay, but for me, I always enter a racetrack when tracking moving convoys. I find it much easier, than a circular orbit, in which you will always be having to change your center of the circle.

 

But be aware, if a convoy is tracking down a road that has steep turns, your going to have to anticipate that, and "bend" your straigtaways to match the road. This can be harder to do. I always try to zoom out the tgp as much as possible, while keeping a lock on the vehicles, so I can see a turn coming up as early as possible. Its also really helpful to practice, getting your head out of the tgp, and looking visually at the convoy to see what the road ahead looks like.

 

Sorry for long post, hope it helps a little

Edited November 5, 2014 by ff4life4

[Dudester22]

@ff4life4 - Don't apologise for the long post, it's really appreciated and explains everything very well. Can you explain when to use INR- Track, if you have got time. I'm just not sure what it does and cant seem to find much about it in the manual. I could be looking in the wrong section though. Thanks!

[ff4life4]

Sorry but I honestly don't know much about the INR. Only thing i found was a post

 

In INR track modes the TGP is just trying to hold it's LOS using gyros, if you are manoeuvring quickly the gyros will not be able to keep up and the pod LOS will drift off the target.

 

In area or point track the pod is using optical tracking via differing contrast to track an object or area. If INR track were as effective as Area/Point then you'd only need INR track.

 

What you need to do is modify your behaviour with the limitations of the pod in mind. Set up an orbit at the IP at an altitude and distance from the target that allows you a good stable view with the pod, locate and mark your targets from the orbit and then sort and engage the marked targets. If follow up attacks are needed, return to the IP and repeat the process.

 

Edit:

 

My basic understanding is that point/area mode utilizes the ability for the TGP to use contrast, and 'see' the ground, and it actively stabilises based upon however it uses its picture to do so.

 

INR from my understanding just uses gyros to stabilize. The TGP goes into INR mode when it becomes masked. Since it can't "see" its trying to stabilize itself based on the gyros, which is much less precise than it using the contrast of the picture

Edited November 5, 2014 by ff4life4

[Rongor]

You don't actually "use" INR, it is the basic mode the TGP works in, as long as you don't assign an area or point to track.

You leave it INR for scanning the area for targets and threats. You will then enter track mode for weapons employment, to gain a precise target lock.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Rongor

[QuiGon]

You can actually fly a circle orbit without masking the TGP. You just need to be high enough and at the right distance. I can't really say what the right distance is, but it's neither too close nor too far away. And of course you need to orbit clockwise (if the TGP is on your right wing, which it is by default). You can even orbit with engaged autopilot (i think the corresponding AP-channel is the pitch-channel; the rear/bottom switch position of the 3 possible positions).

 

About INR: Like it has been said: It's just a backup mode which will be used when the TGP lost LOS to the target. It works pretty well for stationary targets and even moving targets as long as they don't change speed or direction. It will drift off though if the target changes the speed and/or direction of movement, because the TGP predicts the position of the target by its last known values when in INR-mode.

[Rongor]

You can even orbit with engaged autopilot (i think the corresponding AP-channel is the pitch-channel; the rear/bottom switch position of the 3 possible positions).

Selectable channels like that are provided with SAS only. Also we wanna roll into a turn, not pitch up and down.;)

 

Albeit you can use the ALT mode of your AP after entering that right turn. You select it with the right switch to the down position on your LASTE panel, below your throttle unit. This will maintain your altitude and also your bank angle at the time you engage AP.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Rongor
corrected false information

[QuiGon]

Yeah, pitch makes no sense, but i can't remember what the down position of that switch is labeled. In that mode the AP will hold the current altitude and roll/bank angle. So you can orbit around a spot on the ground with autopilot control.

[Harzach]

You can even orbit with engaged autopilot (i think the corresponding AP-channel is the pitch-channel; the rear/bottom switch position of the 3 possible positions).

 

No you can't. Selectable channels like that are provided with SAS only. Also we wanna roll into a turn, not pitch up and down.;)

 

Albeit you can use the path mode of your AP after entering that right turn. You select it with the right switch to the up position on your LASTE panel, below your throttle unit. You could also do it without AP by simply trimming your roll axis accordingly.

 

PATH mode is "pitch" mode. Use it to maintain your flight path. It can't be used to hold a bank/turn.

 

From level flight:

 

- Roll to desired bank angle

- Engage EAC in ALT mode (LAAP switch in down position)

 

http://en.wiki.eagle.ru/wiki/EAC_-_Autopilot_system_explained

[QuiGon]

PATH mode is "pitch" mode. Use it to maintain your flight path. It can't be used to hold a bank/turn.

 

From level flight:

 

- Roll to desired bank angle

- Engage EAC in ALT mode (LAAP switch in down position)

 

http://en.wiki.eagle.ru/wiki/EAC_-_Autopilot_system_explained

 

ALT, that's it!

 

It's really useful if you're working as an AFAC. So you can orbit around the target area without having to touch the stick, so you can focus on searching and marking/linking targets.

Edited November 5, 2014 by QuiGon

[Nerull]

ALT, that's it!

 

ALT, like in Altitude: AP keeps you plane at the same altitude, not caring about your roll or yaw input.

 

PATH keeps your nose pointing towards where it was pointing when you engaged the AP. It keeps the plane in the same path as you started (can stall you if your power's too low :) )

 

3rd position (middle one, don't remember the exact abbreviation) keeps you going straight and level.

[QuiGon]

ALT, like in Altitude: AP keeps you plane at the same altitude, not caring about your roll or yaw input.

 

PATH keeps your nose pointing towards where it was pointing when you engaged the AP. It keeps the plane in the same path as you started (can stall you if your power's too low :) )

 

3rd position (middle one, don't remember the exact abbreviation) keeps you going straight and level.

 

Yeah, I was aware of how they work, I just forgot how they are labeled ;)

[Rongor]

Thanks, corrected my post.

[Luzifer]

ALT, like in Altitude: AP keeps you plane at the same altitude, not caring about your roll or yaw input.

 

Actually it does care about roll, it keeps your bank angle stable.

[Wrecking Crew]

And use Mark Points. Once you find the enemy, make a Mark Point of a unit or three. Switch your CDU to Mark and you can slave the TGP to all those points.

 

WC

[Yurgon]

I would also like to know when it's best to use INR track? I'm a bit unsure what this mode does. Does it continue to track moving targets even after they have been masked or something? Thanks!

 

In addition to the previous explanations, I think the manual is pretty spot-on in explaining it in the TGP section "Air-to-Ground (A-G) Page":

 

Track mode. If the TGP is in a track mode, this field will indicate the track mode it is in. Types include:

• AREA. The TGP has been space stabilized on an overall scene, but is not tracking a specified object. If AREA track cannot be maintained due to aircraft masking, it reverts to INR-A mode and will return to the AREA track location if track can be reestablished by unmasking.
  
• POINT. The TGP has established a track on a specific object/target and is stabilized on it. It will continue tracking even if the target is moving. When tracking in POINT mode, a box is drawn around the edge of the object being tracked. The object does not need to be bounded and the box will not expand to encompass the entire object—it remains a fixed size. If the object cannot be tracked due to aircraft masking, it will revert to INR-P mode, but will return to the POINT track if track can be reestablished by unmasking.
  
• INR-A. If the TGP is tracking in AREA mode and is masked, Inertial Area (INR-A) is displayed. The TGP will attempt to re-track the area lost when the mask constraint has been eliminated.
  
• INR-P. If the TGP is tracking in POINT mode and is masked, Inertial Point (INR-P) is displayed. The TGP will attempt to re-track the point lost when the mask constraint has been eliminated.
  
• INR. When in Inertial (INR) mode, the TGP will remain fixed on a geographic reference point.

[Mike5560]

Some find the TAAF (TGP Attitude Advisary Function) useful, though I dont particularly use it.

It's a tool to warn you of your A/C attitude so you dont pod mask, but it's a general guidline and is not a magic bullet to prevent pod masking.

 

It's accessed by OSB 1 on the TGP main page, then OSB 20. You enter in your orbiting altitude into the scratchpad, and will get a red "Check Attitude" warning box when certain parameters are exceeded.

 

More info on it on pg 339 in the flight manual.

[GripenNG]

Some find the TAAF (TGP Attitude Advisary Function) useful, though I dont particularly use it.

It's a tool to warn you of your A/C attitude so you dont pod mask, but it's a general guidline and is not a magic bullet to prevent pod masking.

 

It's accessed by OSB 1 on the TGP main page, then OSB 20. You enter in your orbiting altitude into the scratchpad, and will get a red "Check Attitude" warning box when certain parameters are exceeded.

 

More info on it on pg 339 in the flight manual.

 

To my understanding it has nothing to do with being masked, as the TGP can be masked in level attitude by other ordinance, or the airframe itself. I see it as a safety barrier for when the pilot is going heads down - you really need to do something stupid to actually set the warning off! 75 degree bank is not an attitude you´d want to be in during a heads down orbit.

[Dudester22]

What degrees of turn can you normal get before you start to get masked? I think I read somewhere it been ten degrees or five degrees, but I won't get the chance to test it till the weekend now.

[GripenNG]

What degrees of turn can you normal get before you start to get masked? I think I read somewhere it been ten degrees or five degrees, but I won't get the chance to test it till the weekend now.

 

It depends on how far away the target area is, your altitude- and attitude, what direction relative of your aircraft the TGP is pointing - or any other ordinance that may be in the way. I´ve even had the "luck" to get masked by my wingman during a Buddy Lase after release.

 

There is no set rule for when a masking occurs - you just have to maneuver your aircraft with experience and some common sense.