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Is the FW Snap-Rollable


Der_Fred

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Haven't got the a/c yet, but would like to know from anyone who has it...

 

Flying straight and level at any speed (without breaking the wings off), pull hard back on stick and kick hard rudder (any direction).

 

Does it flip over violently... clockwise flip faster than anti-clockwise ?

 

Just curious

:)

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It does, and it wants to go into a nasty spin, so I don't see any practical usage of such maneuver :D. CW or CCW I didn't notice any big differences, though I started with RPM set to dial out unwanted roll.

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Most prop planes will roll-over or snap when you pull the stick fast and kick full rudder, e.g. BF109 would do it as well. Dora in DCS is no exception, however the snap is not as violent as for example radial Anton should give, but it sill happens pretty fast, but more predictably / or feels more under control.

 

As the usability of said manoeuvre, say in combat, it allows you to get much faster into split-S that way than by roll-rate alone (granted you can cancel out the snap-roll effectively) or enter the spin otherwise (which again can confuse closing pursuer, who might not have enough time to get an aim on you). Spins however often confuse me more than the by-flyers, I admit :smilewink:

 

I imagine that which snap is faster, either clockwise or counterclockwise would be determined by rpm of the propeller, though it wouldn't be nearly as obvious as on the Anton, in my opinion (as I'm not the expert on aerodynamics here). Will have to give it a try though!

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do you think it´s a good advice to loose most of your energy by doing some fancy gimmicks in an pure energy fighter which could´nt turn with it´s opponent at all ? Most Dora´s who do that fall pretty fast...that´s all what i can say from my P51 experience in Dogs of War server. and even if you can control those fancy maneauvers or not does´nt really matter.....it did´nt in IL2 and it does´nt in DCS and perhaps it never did in reality.....if i control my overshot as you your snaproll you never hit me and i have gain tha energy advantage plus the better turnrate. now the Dora is more in trouble than before !


Edited by kubanloewe

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Of course, experienced opponent won't follow you, but rather perform high yoyo for example. That wasn't the point of this thread however, but OP states a question whether it is possible to do it in DCS or not.

 

Doable as a manoeuvre, not viable everyday "gimmick" or the way how to fight in Dora. Maybe just one of the last resort attempts to turn the tables or cause confusion (who would otherwise willingly bleed the rest of their energy and enter the half or full spin, if not as the last hope move?).

 

I understand that after year spent in virtual dogfights it is hard to look at things from the outside sometimes. Though I know I've tried to.

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At least in the P-51 I can produce a snap roll and end exactly 360° later and it all goes in less then 2 seconds so if you are at my six and don't watch out, that is one anchor I can throw out ;)

 

It does get out a bit in a wobble kind of attitude but if you let go it will stabilize in a matter of seconds. It works with almost no altitude loss so you can pull this off 50m above the strip.

 

 

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yeah i also am of the opinion that such a manouver will just delay your death a bit at most.

 

...which is exactly the point. I think we all need to admit that if there's someone on your six, in firing position, with anywhere close to the same energy state as you, you are NOT getting rid of him unless he's quite incompetent, or your aircraft has overwhelming speed/climb/acceleration advantages.

 

At this point, there's little you can do to get him off your tail, so all you're doing is trying to get him to overshoot... not so that you can get on him (it won't happen), but to buy yourself time: that 30 seconds it takes him to go up and come back down the other side of his yo-yo is 30 seconds closer to home, or thirty more seconds for your wingman to come shoot him off your tail. On more than a few occasions, I've managed to fly myself home 20 minutes or more while under attack, merely by making them miss their high-speed pass and overshoot and extend, again, and again, and again.

 

Is it optimal? No. But the reality of DCS is that quite often, an airplane will materialize on your tail before you even know it's in the area, because the spotting range is so short. And once they're back there, dead astern, in gun range, co-energy (or more), you just have to try to survive and hope they screw up. It happens to me every few sorties, even though I consider myself reasonably good at spotting aircraft in DCS; my wingmen on TS often can't find targets for a minute or two even when I direct them onto them, and express surprise I ever saw it to begin with.

 

That said, the snap roll isn't the optimal maneuver to force those overshoots, as it DOES bleed entirely too much energy (and often a fair bit of altitude, to boot, given that situations in which it is appropriate, you're already fairly slow), but in certain cases- usually when they enemy is driving his nose right up your rudder- it can indeed force a quick overshoot and save your bacon.


Edited by OutOnTheOP
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At this point, there's little you can do to get him off your tail, so all you're doing is trying to get him to overshoot... not so that you can get on him (it won't happen)

 

^^disagree,...there is plenty you can do with a guy on your 6 and equal energy.thats where the fun starts.

the important thing in such a situation is to execute manouvers which are not purely defensive, but get you into an offensive position at the same time.(if you do it right it will happen)thats the art.a snaproll would be useable, if one wouldnt lose that much energy.

thats my approach on this matter, and i wont tell you to stop snap rolling...thats only good for me and others :)


Edited by 9./JG27 DavidRed
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I used aggressive snap rolls in old IL2 sometimes, however mostly only in FWs against certain types of aircraft (P51, P47) and only at high speeds. The idea was to use snap roll as mean for loosing only 50-100km/h quickly without becoming a sitting duck. The sequence was: high speed hard turn, but still with enough room for pursuer to pull for lead shot, then snap roll to outside of turn and immediately counter it with a goal of 1-2 full revolutions only. This forced pursuer to overshoot, but left me at speed, which was way over my corner one. If pursuer immediately dived, he was safe, but so was I; if he pulled up or continued straight while in confusion, I could take an advantage or have some trigger time at least. Of course, such snap rolls were not used while having multiple pursuers or against something like Spits or Yaks, and relied a lot on surprise.

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^^disagree,...there is plenty you can do with a guy on your 6 and equal energy.thats where the fun starts.

the important thing in such a situation is to execute manouvers which are not purely defensive, but get you into an offensive position at the same time.(if you do it right it will happen)thats the art.a snaproll would be useable, if one wouldnt lose that much energy.

thats my approach on this matter, and i wont tell you to stop snap rolling...thats only good for me and others :)

 

Mostly agree with you David.

In online battles I 've been, good Dora pilots use rolling scissors very effectively, taking the Dora's roll rate into advantage, while keeping the energy up. That's the best defensive-offensive maneuver I 've witnessed.

 

I don't think that any kind of snap-roll would be an effective maneuver in a dogfight, unless perhaps under very specific circumstances and a heck of a good pilot. Too much energy loss.

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It can be used to buy you time but I only use it in emergency situations when I'm being closely followed at lower speeds. It's rarely effective against better pilots who maintain speed discipline in pursuit (alot of Mustangs pilots get greedy and don't) but sometimes its the last trick in the bag.

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^^disagree,...there is plenty you can do with a guy on your 6 and equal energy.thats where the fun starts.

the important thing in such a situation is to execute manouvers which are not purely defensive, but get you into an offensive position at the same time.(if you do it right it will happen) :)

 

You must have missed the part where I specifically excluded incompetent opponents. Against a competent opponent, it won't work. Luckily for us, there are plenty of incompetent pilots online. But in the real world, when someone is on your six, you are buying time, hoping that either your friends show up to deal with him, or the guy behind you makes a major blunder. There's no magic move that will get you from defensive to offensive unless they screw up. Every major air force out there agrees on this point.

 

It can be used to buy you time but I only use it in emergency situations when I'm being closely followed at lower speeds. It's rarely effective against better pilots who maintain speed discipline in pursuit (alot of Mustangs pilots get greedy and don't) but sometimes its the last trick in the bag.

 

Exactly.

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It is possible to snap roll any aircraft ,and recover within 180 degrees of roll. There won't be too much energy loss.

 

It's just really another way to changed direction really fast, and it does, in most cases, cause a dangerous overshoot for the attacker.

 

As mentioned.. all this depends on both pilots skills, plus 'panic' and 'frustration' levels.

 

I think it's a very important maneuver in the pilots repertoire.

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