P-51 vs Bf-109 dogfight impressions

[Kwiatek]

Difficult but not impossible. I really had to micro manage my flaps and trim to keep my E. I don't think I would fight like this against a human opponent, but also I don't think human opponents will be hanging at 50-100kph stalls for extended periods of time like the AI does, because their engine would probably overheat.

 

 

 

The mustang isn't very competitive against the 109 below 7000ft, because your only advantage (speed) is gone at low altitudes.

 

Try the same with human opponent :harhar:

[Chief1942]

This thread reminds me so much of those that came after the P-51 was released and it's opponent was the FW-190. Talk about vertical and being able to hang on the prop. Seems I read almost the same things being said about the 109-K4. After some time, it seems the FW-190 is a fair fight but not the ridiculous one it was at the outset. Still takes 90+ hits of those 50 cals to one of theirs. I sense the same evolution will happen with the 109-K4. Will wait and watch.

[kubanloewe]

online i find my Mustang is still top notch against the 2 Hun Fighters ....dont fear about them if you stay fast. Problem could be a 190 and a 109 in a pair yes but only if you are alone and let them force you to go in a dogfight....otherwise go away search for other targets or wait for another P51.

The 109 cant turn at all above 5000m and the 190 looses muuch power above 6000m. 109 has so much weak points yet like loosing wings, poor weaponry and if the host limit their available numbers at the base most of them end in a fireball at take off if not than perhaps at landing ....:D

[gavagai]

For me the biggest challenge in flying the P-51 is other P-51 pilots. It only takes 2 or 3 P-51s flying CAS who don't mind dying every time to drag the fight down to the deck, where the 109s snack on them like an aperitif.

 

But I had some success against human flown 109s yesterday when I hosted multiplayer. I had a one-pass kill where the 109 just broke apart with a good burst. On another occasion I used WEP to turn with a damaged 109 and finished him off.

 

So, with more experience, I think the 190 is the more dangerous opponent. You can't run from it, and if the 190 pilot is intelligent he can dictate the engagement.

[Zilch]

I tried the 109 against an AI P-51 to see what's up. It was a quick fight and got a quick shot at him. The Mustang exploded with a burst lasting less than a second.

 

I then tried my favorite Mustang against a 109. In the several 1v1 matches I've flown against AI, I can't shoot them down. I can outfly them, yes, and get enough firing opportunities. However, after scoring 100 to 120 hits with my M2's, they *just won't go down.* I end up running out of ammo before he dies.

 

I've ended up right in elbow position many times, and either he out-zooms me before I stall out, or I hammer him with my six guns and he starts smoking. While this makes him easier to find, it doesn't seem to hinder his performance. I just can't seem to seal the deal against a single opponent. I haven't even bothered with multiple enemies yet.

 

Any ballpark numbers on how many shots it takes to bring down a Kurfurst? I know it matters *where* I'm hitting him, but I figure that 120 half inch holes in *anything* should be enough to make it fall. Is this an issue with my aim or the damage model?

 

Similar issue against an L-39. However, I hit it with over 200 rounds, and it wouldn't die, despite its nose being blown off and most of my rounds apparently hitting him in the rear engine area. I would have thought this would bring it down, but again, I just ran out of fifty cal before he died...if this is realistic, I have no problem with it, but I get the impression that the good ol' M2 is missing some of its bite in DCS that it has in the real world.

 

Thanks.

[Demon_]

The only hope in a Mustang to escape the 109 is to use the tunnel vision... And move away!

This works against the AI? :D

Edited December 14, 2014 by Demon_

[gavagai]

I broke my wingtip off three times today trying to pursue P-51s in spiral dives. If the P-51 has altitude it is a sure way to escape.

[Solty]

I broke my wingtip off three times today trying to pursue P-51s in spiral dives. If the P-51 has altitude it is a sure way to escape.

Escaping is not winning though. I would love to escape if the LOD was good enough so I could still track him and go after him when he disengages, but no. LOD in DCS sucks so after 1km from him, I can't see him anymore. Great.

[Yob]

Escaping is not winning though. I would love to escape if the LOD was good enough so I could still track him and go after him when he disengages, but no. LOD in DCS sucks so after 1km from him, I can't see him anymore. Great.

 

That is a problem with seeing him after the engagement is over. But to think of it from a more historical view point.

 

If you get away from an Aircraft that is better in some aspects like climbing and turning, even in the sim, it is still a nice feeling to land with no holes in the wing. Refuel/rearm or have a drink. and then get back up there.

[Solty]

That is a problem with seeing him after the engagement is over. But to think of it from a more historical view point.

 

If you get away from an Aircraft that is better in some aspects like climbing and turning, even in the sim, it is still a nice feeling to land with no holes in the wing. Refuel/rearm or have a drink. and then get back up there.

Sorry, I am a person of action. If I don't get 2 kills during one flight I feel that it was a waste of my time, and I want to go to sleep with at least 5 kills I can't sleep well without it :mad:. I am sorry. I just like conclusions in my fights. Just hate the feeling of empty gas tank and no ammo used during a fight, especially when somebody attacks me. I want to bite back.

[SilentGun]

I have an even better way to escape the 109... Just Alt Tab out and lagaport your way to safety. (It's not cheating :) I'm sure that pilots in real life would love this)

[DB 605]

Sorry, I am a person of action. If I don't get 2 kills during one flight I feel that it was a waste of my time, and I want to go to sleep with at least 5 kills I can't sleep well without it :mad:. I am sorry. I just like conclusions in my fights. Just hate the feeling of empty gas tank and no ammo used during a fight, especially when somebody attacks me. I want to bite back.

 

Isn't WT better game for this kind of action stuff?

[gavagai]

Isn't WT better game for this kind of action stuff?

 

There are multiple of ways to enjoy DCS. We share a love of high fidelity aircraft simulation, but beyond that it is normal and OK for tastes to differ.

 

Let's be inclusive, not exclusive.:thumbup:

[FSKRipper]

Sorry, I am a person of action. If I don't get 2 kills during one flight I feel that it was a waste of my time, and I want to go to sleep with at least 5 kills I can't sleep well without it :mad:. I am sorry. I just like conclusions in my fights. Just hate the feeling of empty gas tank and no ammo used during a fight, especially when somebody attacks me. I want to bite back.

 

Maybe you try the 109 next time :megalol:

[USARStarkey]

Escaping is not winning though. I would love to escape if the LOD was good enough so I could still track him and go after him when he disengages, but no. LOD in DCS sucks so after 1km from him, I can't see him anymore. Great.

 

escaping does = winning. Especially in a historical context. If in 10 fights I only engage when I have an advantage, ie: altitude, and I run or dive or whatever to escape in any scenario where I do not, then I will be successful overall. If my aircraft has a ability that makes this possible, say speed or dive, then I have the superior plane. Fight when I enter from an advantage, run when I do not.

What is more, in many vs many engagements, speed is what matters. If you have a 2 ship element fighting a 2 ship element, and one element is slower, then that element will loose if the faster element performs properly. If the faster element picks up a bandit on one of them, they can run and clear each others tails. However, while all this running is going on, the wingman of the pursuing slower fighter element wont be able to catch his wing. IE: faster fighters can always catch up to the fight, slower ones cant.

 

 

In Summary: Run when its not advantageous-Fight when it is.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

I'd love to see when. It is one of the most defining factors for the P-51 in a fight against a 109. One of and probably only hole in its design that Mustang can exploit.

 

 

well, the spotting can be hard in dcs, but if you lose contacts at a distance of 1km, then it is a problem of either your setup, or your eyes mate, and not the LOD models of dcs.

[SkyCaptain109]

I had some dogfights in the 109 against human P-51 online and I must say that it is pretty close. I feel that the turn performance is close, I was at the edge of a stall in the 109 turning with a P-51 which used it's flaps and I was able to follow but I could not turn inside him. The P-51 has good acceleration in dives and a good instantaneous turn at high speed. In a shallow climb I will normally catch the mustang but only with MW50 engaged.

 

So to sum up I would say that it depends on pilot skill:pilotfly:

[Kurfürst]

In Summary: Run when its not advantageous-Fight when it is.

 

Sun Tzu approves. :thumbup:

[tusler]

The bottom Line

 

According to this I guess the Allies were lucky the Axis did not have qualified pilots when the K4 came available.

 

[Solty]

According to this I guess the Allies were lucky the Axis did not have qualified pilots when the K4 came available.

 

 

This is one of the worst shows out there.

 

This one is better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdyFzhaYvvA

Be advised though, one animation for Col. Candaleria is realy bad and it shows a maneuver that is impossible for any prop plane to do.

 

But it is a nice one anyway. Just don't take everything for granted as truth.

[WildBillKelsoe]

All History channel animations are fake. Just like red tails animated thrust vectoring 109/51. Plain fake and g**

[USARStarkey]

According to this I guess the Allies were lucky the Axis did not have qualified pilots when the K4 came available.

 

 

They didn't have quality pilots or fuel ETC, because the Luftwaffe by october 44 was a defunct an defeated animal. You cant directly compare things like that.

 

You also need to keep in mind that the K4 only made up a 4th of 109s around the turn of the year, and that it faced P-51's at 72-75" not 67. Furthermore, had the K4 been in service before it was too late to matter(which is a what if scenario) then you could just as easily surmise that perhaps something like the P-51H might have been pushed into service faster. Need tends to result in procurement.

 

However, none of that matters. In actual fact, the fighter arm of the Luftwaffe was for all intensive purposes defeated well before the 109K came out.

[OutOnTheOP]

They didn't have quality pilots or fuel ETC, because the Luftwaffe by october 44 was a defunct an defeated animal. You cant directly compare things like that.

 

You also need to keep in mind that the K4 only made up a 4th of 109s around the turn of the year, and that it faced P-51's at 72-75" not 67. Furthermore, had the K4 been in service before it was too late to matter(which is a what if scenario) then you could just as easily surmise that perhaps something like the P-51H might have been pushed into service faster. Need tends to result in procurement.

 

However, none of that matters. In actual fact, the fighter arm of the Luftwaffe was for all intensive purposes defeated well before the 109K came out.

 

 

Arrrgh. It's "for all intents and purposes". Huge pet peeve of mine.

 

That said, I agree with everything else in your post.

[MiloMorai]

The Lw still had some teeth in the ETO.

 

Fighters

Aug lost 613 out of 1491 on hand

Sept lost 400 out of 1314 on hand

Oct lost 499 out of 1332 on hand

Nov lost 363 out of 1360 on hand

Dec lost 464 out of 1370 on hand

 

In one of my 109 books it lists 109 aces. I was surprised at the number of 109 aces with 50 or more claims that survived the war. It was 2/3rds of them.

[Solty]

All History channel animations are fake. Just like red tails animated thrust vectoring 109/51. Plain fake and g**

True(and I said that they have a animation error), but at least they made their research and have real pilots to say something.

 

The Showdown is just bad. The pilot that is the host is just bad at history and knows nothing about prop planes. They also give us HA-1112 as the Bf109G6 and says that it is one of the last existing 109s. So he lies to the people. They also never go into detail in what was each plane capable of, claiming that P-51 is just plain better. And animation is realy baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

 

At least Dogfights is reliable and except for 1 or 2 animations everything else is at good level. Don't be overcritical. It is for the masses and it is surely one of the best shows to achieve a some degree of realism and not bore everyone to death.

 

Is it a "documentary" that you can quote for discussing plane performance? No.

Is it interesting to listen to the pilots and have their memories animated? Yes.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Solty