Landing in the Bf 109K-4

[Flanker35M]

S!

 

Been honing the landings on the Kurfürst. There is no problem setting it on the runway on a 3-pointer at desired speed, at all. But the problem seems to be this VERY strong tendency to dip the wing, even at low speeds after landing. It would break the landing gear if the plane would be skidding around with one gear. I've read many Bf109 pilot memoirs and none of them mention this "dip a wing" during roll out. Only thing mentioned was that they considered landing on a concrete/asphalt runway slightly trickier due better traction.

 

My problem might be that I do not have toe brakes on my pedals, so old ones. I still do not not believe the prop torque at idle is strong enough to dip the plane on it's wing. Anyways, fun plane to fly so back to training.

[Lizzard]

..try to pull the stick fully back after touchdown and leave it there..and make sure the tailwheel is locked..

[Flanker35M]

S!

 

I do have tail wheel locked and stick back ;) I went through reports on flying the 109 and none mention the wing dip. Only thing they mentioned was that the plane was to be kept straight during rollout with brakes, so it would not ground loop. And it was hard if pilot forgot to lock the tailwheel.

 

Anyways, back to training :) I love the challenge.

[DB 605]

S!

 

It would break the landing gear if the plane would be skidding around with one gear.

 

Not really:

 

 

 

My problem might be that I do not have toe brakes on my pedals, so old ones. I still do not not believe the prop torque at idle is strong enough to dip the plane on it's wing. Anyways, fun plane to fly so back to training.

 

This. With proper toe brakes and more training, i do not find any strong tendency to dip wing unless there is strong crosswind.

[JST]

3-point, stick fully back and brakes fully down.

[Chappie]

Watched some 109s taking off and landing on YouTube. Became clear to me not a one does a three-point landing but instead touched mains (quite bouncy on grass) and then let the tail fall on its own whiles maintaining track. Then again, on grass, track is wherever you don't hit something.

 

In DCS, runway is all we have and I think this ought to be remedied by allowing grass, dirt, and unimproved landings without the bird cartwheeling everywhere.

 

I am going to try these landing techniques and allow the plane to slow with tail on the ground before pulling stick back and breaking.

[SlipBall]

Watched some 109s taking off and landing on YouTube. Became clear to me not a one does a three-point landing but instead touched mains (quite bouncy on grass) and then let the tail fall on its own whiles maintaining track. Then again, on grass, track is wherever you don't hit something.

 

In DCS, runway is all we have and I think this ought to be remedied by allowing grass, dirt, and unimproved landings without the bird cartwheeling everywhere.

 

I am going to try these landing techniques and allow the plane to slow with tail on the ground before pulling stick back and breaking.

 

 

not the best viewing angle but I think he does a 3 point here.

Also notice that he does a quick turn to the left side (right before the threshold) so to line up , so as to aid in his visibility

 

Edited December 29, 2014 by GT 5.0

[JST]

Can anyone post a video of a real-life 109 landing level? I can only find videos where they 3-point. Like they should, as any one of the pilots will tell you to.

 

E: Typo

Edited December 29, 2014 by JST

[ophiuchus]

"Sort of" two point:

Hz1o4PzGkU4

but not very clear

 

On the other hand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7MZznd754yE#t=723

[JST]

2-point, yes.

[SkyCaptain109]

 

First landing is really smooth, last landing of a Bouchon aborted and go around

 

 

Very bouncy on the grass!

 

 

 

First landing looking really dangerous!

[SlipBall]

I've been taking off/landing on the grass and in farmers fields, for awhile now. I know that the important thing to this is to take off/land into a good paced wind(mission editor). I don't normally apply any brakes until I've slowed down a bit, and I don't lock the tail wheel all the time. I just try to keep the wings level when I'm riding it out, waiting to slow down.

[SkyCaptain109]

I've been taking off/landing on the grass and in farmers fields, for awhile now. I know that the important thing to this is to take off/land into a good paced wind(mission editor). I don't normally apply any brakes until I've slowed down a bit, and I don't lock the tail wheel all the time. I just try to keep the wings level when I'm riding it out, waiting to slow down.

 

Where do you do it? I can't land or take off off the grass because the aircraft flips over.

[9.JG52 Woelfel]

I"m happy to say I've finally had a dozen or so consecutive landings without scraping a wing. In my case the keys to success were higher approach speeds, not being in a hurry to flare out - not really flaring it out at all actually- just letting it run out of speed, landing on the front wheels and pulling the stick back immediately.

 

I then watched the replay track and what stood out in my mind was how the tail wheel would bounce the tail right off the ground from a mere crack in the tarmac long after the aircraft had touched down.

 

I can't help but believe there are some adjustments to be made in the spring/dampener characteristics for both the main wheels and tail wheel. They're simply too eager to bounce and demand that every landing be nearly perfect to be successful.

 

In the past I worked on a flight sim that had the very same problem with the 109. It had a great FM but the undercarriage prevented anyone from being able to land it consistently. Once the spring/dampening parameters were adjusted properly and in sync with the tail wheel so that the AC didn't bounce from main wheels to tail wheel and back as well as from main wheel to main wheel, it became far more manageable. It took a lot of work since testing was primarily subjective in nature and each adjustment impacted every other. I can't recall the exact number but I know I performed a few thousand test landings before we were satisfied the optimal settings had been nailed down to the sixth decimal place.

 

The very same types of adjustments could be performed on the real thing and I'd have to believe they were, given how many crashes might consequently be avoided.

 

It's probably worth looking into on this particular FM.

[SlipBall]

Where do you do it? I can't land or take off off the grass because the aircraft flips over.

 

 

yeah I have a lot of that too. That's what I was saying about the wind being a big factor for success. Clearly they will have to keep fine tuning this aircraft, because its a bit too tippy and bouncy for the lawn. :P...strong wind lessens your roll time, less time rolling, less risk to the plane.

Edited December 30, 2014 by GT 5.0

[9.JG52 Woelfel]

The tail wheel is sprung to stiffly and/or is insufficiently dampened and the effect is magnified by the fact those variables are poorly matched to the main wheels which also have badly adjusted springs and dampeners. When bouncing from one main wheel to the other, the bounces ought to gradually diminish and the plane should settle down.

A couple of examples that stand out in my mind was when after landing on grass and coasting in a straight line until a point where i was doing less than 75mph, and touching the right brake to begin a sequence of right/left brake inputs. The right main wheel strut compressed and the plane broke up as it bounced from one wing to the other. It was ludicrous for a variety of reasons for example the brake could scarcely have had that much effect on grass as anyone who's ever run off the road on a street motorcycle can tell you. The main wheel spring fully compressed and the tail wheel lifted a foot off the ground from a single tap on the right brake.

 

Anyway, I'm going to go into the FMOptions.lua file and see if I can make a few adjustments to the undercarriage variables.

Edited December 31, 2014 by 9./JG52 Woelfel

[Chappie]

if you start rolling to the right, feather the right brake to stop the roll, then feather the left brake to stop the right turn.

 

you end up constantly feathering both brakes almost randomly till you come to a stop...

 

Centerline discipline is a better approach. Lineup of your aircraft with thw runway centerline has far more value to a clean rollout on the runway.

 

Also, nothing wrong with departing the runway once down and rolling out although I agree differential breaking is useful but more a crutch for poor centerline discipline.

[Chappie]

The tail wheel is sprung to stiffly and/or is insufficiently dampened and the effect is magnified by the fact those variables are poorly matched to the main wheels which also have badly adjusted springs and dampeners. When bouncing from one main wheel to the other, the bounces ought to gradually diminish and the plane should settle down.

A couple of examples that stand out in my mind was when after landing on grass and coasting in a straight line until a point where i was doing less than 75mph, and touching the right brake to begin a sequence of right/left brake inputs. The right main wheel strut compressed and the plane broke up as it bounced from one wing to the other. It was ludicrous for a variety of reasons for example the brake could scarcely have had that much effect on grass as anyone who's ever run off the road on a street motorcycle can tell you. The main wheel spring fully compressed and the tail wheel lifted a foot off the ground from a single tap on the right brake.

 

Anyway, I'm going to go into the FMOptions.lua file and see if I can make a few adjustments to the undercarriage variables.

 

I think the main reason you see this behavior is because off-runway landings are poorly modeled. This is recent behavior where, prior to DCS, touching the ground on landing meant instant explosion. Now it appears we are seeing a sblamce of grass landings but it is proprly tuned for what you see o youtube 109 landings.

[SlipBall]

This field seems good...in the quick action menu for the approach mission. It is a darker color grass field, not a farm field. It is about 3km from the truck or whatever it is parked at the airfield. It is to the left of the runway as you approach this grass field heading towards the air field. There is a power plant with 3 stacks that you will come to rest at, on your port side, maybe 400m or so from you, and there are 2 bridges that you will see up ahead of you not far away, towards, and still left of the airfield. Give this field a try guys

 

 

Edited January 16, 2015 by GT 5.0

[Flanker35M]

S!

 

Nailed a perfect landing last night! What I did was..On approach manual prop pitch, set to 11:30. Trim to "zero", open radiators, flaps down and gear down. Lock tailwheel. Approach at around 200km/h and over threshold cut throttle, pull back stick to get a 3-pointer and keep stick fully back. Touches down at around 140-150km/h. Hit the brakes when firmly on ground. No verring or wing dip. Yes!

 

I do agree with the poster above about the struts. They seem very bouncy so this means they have too high pressure in them. And how is tyre pressure modelled? Has an effect as well. Anyways, now to the Dora. Need to train on it as well.

[Derbysieger]

Nice save with the bent undercarriage ;)

 

My attempt: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6u7spwvm8fi1qyu/Bf109K_grass_landing.trk?dl=0

[SlipBall]

Thanks!...and I enjoyed your file too :D

[Vespa]

Landing in 109: a real challenge

 

Hallo guy...can I ask how do you land in 109?

It's almost impossible for me to land correctly...alway get my Kurfurst crashed.

What I do:

- reduce speed to 200 kmh

- full flap

- Landing gear down

- tail wheel locked

- keep constant rate of descent...controlling quote with throttle and speed with stick

- RPM 1200/1300

- at the beginning of ranway...throttle cut out...

- gently rotating the ac to touch on three points

- the Aircraft start reduce speed on ground and...suddenly roll on longitudinal axis touching the runway with left wingtip...nose rotating to the left....airplane crashed!!!

[JST]

Do you hold stick fully back and instantly apply full brakes as you touch the ground?

 

E: Because that is what you should be doing.

Edited January 5, 2015 by JST

[snowsniper]

try to touch the Runway at 160 km/h not 200km/h after a gentle flare to get the right 3 point attitude. If you look away you're probably not enough nose Up.

I always land in Manual Prop set to 12:00 or 12:30 with low RPM with a very little bit of throttle

radiator open ( unfact cold weather ). tail wheel locked

 

Have a look on the right 3 points attitude you should have when you stand on ramp.

Try to do the same 3 points attitude when flaring before touch

try to no apply brake unfact your not completely landed with stick back.

I alway begin to brake once you've loss much speed with elevator

 

have a look if you're rudder/joystick is well centered in your axes settings.