Supongo Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 We speak the same plane? https://www.facebook.com/royalairforce/videos/10153539112584885/ Regards Supongo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Trooper Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 When I take off in the BF-109 I can not help but think that what ED are doing here takes some serious Balls. I think, and it is just my thoughts in my little world, that EDs intention is to create a perfect model that pushes for absolute realism with the data they have. Warts an all. For us simmers, that also means that we need to somewhat equal that goal.... and in the real world that either takes real cash, physical ingenuity or just plain cunning with the input curves. In my limited experience, an extended stick between the legs gets you there.... it works in real life and works just as well in the sim world. Whatever joystick and whether by hook or crook... go there, you will not look back. I think the adjustable preset tabs on the BF-109 is a good idea by the way. :D HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me. DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz. Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IIIJG52_Otto_ Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) I have re-reading the DCS Bf-109K4 manual, ...and now i have the doubt ..E.D. developer team are the same that have editing this manual? why the behavior of K4 in DCS is diferent than they explain in the manual? someone has nose-heavy momment enough to trimming -3 with flaps fully down (Landing gear up), in level flight? :music_whistling: Edited November 18, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+ http://www.jagdgeschwader52.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted November 18, 2015 ED Team Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Ah, trim discussion is back... why don't you give us a nice screenshot of where you trim to with the flaps are down, if you like, one with the gear up, one with the gear down. Otherwise, white noise again if you don't show us your evidence or what you are experiencing. Also note that the manual gives you a a 'Rough Guideline' of -3, this means that its not 100% certain that -3 exactly will be needed, but rather that you will need to adjust as the situation warrants... I have re-reading the DCS Bf-109K4 manual, ...and now i have the doubt ..E.D. developer team are the same that have editing this manual? why the behavior of K4 in DCS is diferent than they explain in the manual? %5B/img%5D [/img] someone has nose-heavy momment enough to trimming -3 with flaps fully down (Landing gear up), in level flight? :music_whistling: Edited November 19, 2015 by NineLine Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester_ Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I cast the necro on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I cast the necro on this thread. Definitely :music_whistling:. Otto, there in the manual don't, repeat, DON'T say what you think it says. Here (again) the only problem is your English language comprehension. Probably the use of the word "normal" in both places isn't the best possible, but those two can be easily understood under a context and they doesn't mean "the same". The first one probably should be changed by "neutral" (meaning the cockpit indicator 0 position) while the "normal flight" means a completely different (and unspecified) thing. S! "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IIIJG52_Otto_ Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Definitely :music_whistling:. Otto, there in the manual don't, repeat, DON'T say what you think it says. Here (again) the only problem is your English language comprehension. Probably the use of the word "normal" in both places isn't the best possible, but those two can be easily understood under a context and they doesn't mean "the same". The first one probably should be changed by "neutral" (meaning the cockpit indicator 0 position) while the "normal flight" means a completely different (and unspecified) thing. S! Curiously, For Bf-109 G4, the estabilizer trim position in "normal flight" is "zero" and that is "neutral", as you can see in these photos (which are, stabilizer trim check marks) photos taken in flight formation. The marks from upper to down are +2º, +1º, 0, and -6º in this aircraft. http://www.jagdgeschwader52.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted November 19, 2015 ED Team Share Posted November 19, 2015 You can tell absolutely nothing by these pictures... ugh, why do we have to do this over and over, you havent brought anything valid to this discussion... Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester_ Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 You can tell absolutely nothing by these pictures... ugh, why do we have to do this over and over, you havent brought anything valid to this discussion... What is this thread even about? I've lost track. What's the alleged problem with trim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) Curiously, For Bf-109 G4, the estabilizer trim position in "normal flight" is "zero" and that is "neutral", as you can see in these photos (which are, stabilizer trim check marks) photos taken in flight formation. The marks from upper to down are +2º, +1º, 0, and -6º in this aircraftNope mate, we all know about your eye sight problem with everything related with this subject, but if you look closely it's trimmed beyond 0º. Also close in flight pictures are always taken from a slower plane, so the 109 had to fly really slow for sure. It would be stupid trying to fly at high cruise close formation while a Cessna or so holds the cameraman... :doh: So he was flying slow, with say ~ +0.30 trim? No way!! on your dreams he should be trimmed something like -3 for that... :P Really that pic just confirms current DCS module as always do your infallible "evidences"... :pain: Whatever, a picture proves nothing at all without further details... :shocking: What is this thread even about? I've lost track. What's the alleged problem with trim?I'm not sure you want to know about it mate... it's being a long and rude fighting for nothing as everything points K4 module is nearly perfect regarding the subject. Trouble is professor Messerschmitt designed a fighter with a moving stabilizer trim instead on trim tabs, so that leads to a controls inversion due to compressibility and high speeds, that's clearly stated in German papers. The way they found to counter that is limiting useful nose down trim to only +1.15º for pilots safe, but at very high speeds you find out of trim and you've to hold the stick yourself. Not a problem in a real aircraft with long stick, but people at home uses short sticks so they find that uncomfortable. Everything shown here points the real deal was like that, and clearly a design feature, so as DCS module is really close to RL it features that previously unseen "detail". But some people don't want to accept that even though the shit load of evidences so they keep saying that has to be wrong because they are uncomfortable using their short sticks and any evidence shown is invalid for them. That's all. S! Edited November 19, 2015 by Ala13_ManOWar "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted November 20, 2015 ED Team Share Posted November 20, 2015 Понеслось... Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sporg Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 - But some people don't want to accept that even though the shit load of evidences so they keep saying that has to be wrong because they are uncomfortable using their short sticks and any evidence shown is invalid for them. That's all. Life is hard for people with a short stick.. :D System specs: Gigabyte Aorus Master, i7 9700K@std, GTX 1080TI OC, 32 GB 3000 MHz RAM, NVMe M.2 SSD, Oculus Quest VR (2x1600x1440) Warthog HOTAS w/150mm extension, Slaw pedals, Gametrix Jetseat, TrackIR for monitor use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted November 20, 2015 ED Team Share Posted November 20, 2015 Curiously, For Bf-109 G4, the estabilizer trim position in "normal flight" is "zero" and that is "neutral", as you can see in these photos (which are, stabilizer trim check marks) photos taken in flight formation. The marks from upper to down are +2º, +1º, 0, and -6º in this aircraft. You would be greatly astonished if you know that the pilot of this plane, Klaus Plaza, was in Duxford this summer. And I had a long talks to him as he was waiting the time to flight. And one of the items was trim. And what he said was that the maximal nose-down trim is only for cruise.... exactly as the WWS institute tested. And as we made in DCS... I use only first hand info... Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavagai Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 what he said was that the maximal nose-down trim is only for cruise.... Sincere question: what is the maximal nose-up trim for? P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Понеслось...You don't know the half about Otto... :lol: :lol: :lol: Life is hard for people with a short stick.. :DDefinitely :D :D. I always recommend buying a long stick :music_whistling: :lol:. You would be greatly astonished if you know that the pilot of this plane, Klaus Plaza, was in Duxford this summer. And I had a long talks to him as he was waiting the time to flight. And one of the items was trim. And what he said was that the maximal nose-down trim is only for cruise.... exactly as the WWS institute tested. And as we made in DCS... I use only first hand info...You would be greatly astonished if you know how many times we have tell that (and many more things) to Otto but he don't believe a thing without your gopro head mounting video of the whole interview, because he is quite sure you made it and you have no other thing in this world to take care of but demonstrating Otto trim is right :lol:. But I tell you, even if that video were possible, even with Klaus Plasa words in stone, Otto still won't believe it because he's uncomfortable with his short (very short and cheap) stick :D. Sincere question: what is the maximal nose-up trim for?You should ask to prof. Messerschmitt? :lol: Anyway, it's useful during landings with full flaps. But negative limit isn't a problem with compressibility so they didn't limit it. S! "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted November 20, 2015 ED Team Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) Sincere question: what is the maximal nose-up trim for? To have enough authority to maintain landing AoA with stripped elevator/stab and maximal forward CoG (with almost empty fuel tank). Edited November 20, 2015 by Yo-Yo Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Sincere question: what is the maximal nose-up trim for? Counteract nose heaviness from deploying flaps? http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IIIJG52_Otto_ Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) Nope mate, we all know about your eye sight problem with everything related with this subject, but if you look closely it's trimmed beyond 0º. Also close in flight pictures are always taken from a slower plane, so the 109 had to fly really slow for sure. It would be stupid trying to fly at high cruise close formation while a Cessna or so holds the cameraman... :doh: So he was flying slow, with say ~ +0.30 trim? No way!! on your dreams he should be trimmed something like -3 for that... :P Really that pic just confirms current DCS module as always do your infallible "evidences"... :pain: Whatever, a picture proves nothing at all without further details... :shocking: really? The picture was taken by John Dibbs from an OV-10 Bronco or SKYVAN ..... Trouble is professor Messerschmitt designed a fighter with a moving stabilizer trim instead on trim tabs,..... Are you sure?? :music_whistling: If this system is so bad .. why all Airbus have this system? Edited November 20, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+ http://www.jagdgeschwader52.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IIIJG52_Otto_ Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) You would be greatly astonished if you know that the pilot of this plane, Klaus Plaza, was in Duxford this summer. And I had a long talks to him as he was waiting the time to flight. And one of the items was trim. And what he said was that the maximal nose-down trim is only for cruise.... exactly as the WWS institute tested. And as we made in DCS... I use only first hand info... Do you have a video about that interview? Klaus Plasa told you something about the 3 bricks and the GoG in the Bf-109G4?? :music_whistling: If it's true this that you say now, ..the Manual of DCS: BF-109K4 is wrong? Zero is the "normal" trim position, yes or Not?? Edited November 20, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+ http://www.jagdgeschwader52.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted November 20, 2015 ED Team Share Posted November 20, 2015 Do you have a video about that interview? Klaus Plasa told you something about the 3 bricks and the GoG in the Bf-109G4?? :music_whistling: If it's true this that you say now, ..the Manual DCS: BF-109K4 is wrong? Zero is the "normal" trim position, yes or Not?? Could you go and... try to get Klaus yourself and ask him. I even have the weight and balance chart for the Red 7 and have no need to ask about bricks... Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted November 20, 2015 ED Team Share Posted November 20, 2015 Do you have a video about that interview? Klaus Plasa told you something about the 3 bricks and the GoG in the Bf-109G4?? :music_whistling: If it's true this that you say now, ..the Manual DCS: BF-109K4 is wrong? Zero is the "normal" trim position, yes or Not?? [/img] I am not sure what you are driving at, but what else is new... if anything its a typo and should be 'neutral' and not 'normal'. Meaning 0 is no trim, positive or negative. When will you let this go, you are really the only one that cant seem to figure this out. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IIIJG52_Otto_ Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Could you go and... try to get Klaus yourself and ask him. I even have the weight and balance chart for the Red 7 and have no need to ask about bricks... The bf-109G4 of Klaus Plasa is very nose-heavy (No weapons or armor plates installed), and 3 ballast bricks (30Kg) was installed in the tail, for centering the CoG. It seems there are many things that Klaus Plasa has not told you. yes or No? http://www.jagdgeschwader52.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted November 20, 2015 ED Team Share Posted November 20, 2015 The bf-109G4 of Klaus Plasa is very nose-heavy (No weapons or armor plates installed), and 3 ballast bricks (30Kg) was installed in the tail, for centering the CoG. It seems there are many things that Klaus Plasa has not told you. yes or No? You need to read what he said, he has the "the weight and balance chart for the Red 7". Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IIIJG52_Otto_ Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) I am not sure what you are driving at, but what else is new... if anything its a typo and should be 'neutral' and not 'normal'. Meaning 0 is no trim, positive or negative. When will you let this go, you are really the only one that cant seem to figure this out. Neutral = NO nose-heavy and NO tail-heavy In a real Bf-109 in normal flight you must set the elevator trim to ZERO, (as previus pictures shown) At the moment there are NOT speed or power setting, that the DCS:BF-109K4 can flight in "neutral" condition with trim in ZERO. That is not correct. You need to read what he said, he has the "the weight and balance chart for the Red 7". Yo-Yo said that "no need to ask about bricks".. and the bricks are there, and he don´t know it. Edited November 20, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+ http://www.jagdgeschwader52.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted November 20, 2015 ED Team Share Posted November 20, 2015 Neutral = NO nose-heavy and NO tail-heavy In a real Bf-109 in normal flight you must set the elevator trim to ZERO, (as previus pictures shown) At the moment there are NOT speed or power setting, that the DCS:BF-109K4 can flight in "neutral" condition. That is not correct. You are not correct. 0 on the trim wheel references the position of trim wheel. 0 means its neither positive or negative trim. A concept that has been explained to you over and over. 0 does not mean that the aircraft is magically rendered neither nose heavy or tail heavy, if there was such a magical setting, then there would be no need for trim at all. Again, this has all been explained to you, repeatedly. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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