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[CLOSED]Bf-109 Trim controls


NeilWillis

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When I take off in the BF-109 I can not help but think that what ED are doing here takes some serious Balls.

 

I think, and it is just my thoughts in my little world, that EDs intention is to create a perfect model that pushes for absolute realism with the data they have. Warts an all.

For us simmers, that also means that we need to somewhat equal that goal.... and in the real world that either takes real cash, physical ingenuity or just plain cunning with the input curves.

 

In my limited experience, an extended stick between the legs gets you there.... it works in real life and works just as well in the sim world.

Whatever joystick and whether by hook or crook... go there, you will not look back.

 

I think the adjustable preset tabs on the BF-109 is a good idea by the way.

 

:D

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  • 2 months later...

I have re-reading the DCS Bf-109K4 manual, ...and now i have the doubt ..E.D. developer team are the same that have editing this manual?

why the behavior of K4 in DCS is diferent than they explain in the manual?

 

12191929_10208180534613364_2143205775282400203_n.jpg?oh=ef0045cb0c573f5a4461d44541b49304&oe=56B0F09E

12250047_10208268074921817_6871547666391183737_n.jpg?oh=15e2cf34c6398931e1c91eda1864fdf6&oe=56ED0297

 

12241756_10208268074841815_2465681584993328273_n.jpg?oh=c9a0acda757133e5a042ead35b6364e2&oe=56AE2966

 

someone has nose-heavy momment enough to trimming -3 with flaps fully down (Landing gear up), in level flight? :music_whistling:


Edited by III/JG52_Otto_+
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Ah, trim discussion is back... why don't you give us a nice screenshot of where you trim to with the flaps are down, if you like, one with the gear up, one with the gear down. Otherwise, white noise again if you don't show us your evidence or what you are experiencing.

 

Also note that the manual gives you a a 'Rough Guideline' of -3, this means that its not 100% certain that -3 exactly will be needed, but rather that you will need to adjust as the situation warrants...

 

I have re-reading the DCS Bf-109K4 manual, ...and now i have the doubt ..E.D. developer team are the same that have editing this manual?

why the behavior of K4 in DCS is diferent than they explain in the manual?

 

%5B/img%5D

 

[/img]

 

someone has nose-heavy momment enough to trimming -3 with flaps fully down (Landing gear up), in level flight? :music_whistling:


Edited by NineLine

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I cast the necro on this thread.

Definitely :music_whistling:.

 

 

Otto, there in the manual don't, repeat, DON'T say what you think it says. Here (again) the only problem is your English language comprehension. Probably the use of the word "normal" in both places isn't the best possible, but those two can be easily understood under a context and they doesn't mean "the same". The first one probably should be changed by "neutral" (meaning the cockpit indicator 0 position) while the "normal flight" means a completely different (and unspecified) thing.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

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Definitely :music_whistling:.

 

 

Otto, there in the manual don't, repeat, DON'T say what you think it says. Here (again) the only problem is your English language comprehension. Probably the use of the word "normal" in both places isn't the best possible, but those two can be easily understood under a context and they doesn't mean "the same". The first one probably should be changed by "neutral" (meaning the cockpit indicator 0 position) while the "normal flight" means a completely different (and unspecified) thing.

 

S!

 

Curiously, For Bf-109 G4, the estabilizer trim position in "normal flight" is "zero" and that is "neutral", as you can see in these photos (which are, stabilizer trim check marks) photos taken in flight formation.

The marks from upper to down are +2º, +1º, 0, and -6º in this aircraft.

 

12188245_10208166420100510_3352734638249183564_o.jpg

 

11063774_10208166420340516_8936406786165971462_o.jpg

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Curiously, For Bf-109 G4, the estabilizer trim position in "normal flight" is "zero" and that is "neutral", as you can see in these photos (which are, stabilizer trim check marks) photos taken in flight formation.

The marks from upper to down are +2º, +1º, 0, and -6º in this aircraft

Nope mate, we all know about your eye sight problem with everything related with this subject, but if you look closely it's trimmed beyond 0º. Also close in flight pictures are always taken from a slower plane, so the 109 had to fly really slow for sure. It would be stupid trying to fly at high cruise close formation while a Cessna or so holds the cameraman... :doh: So he was flying slow, with say ~ +0.30 trim? No way!! on your dreams he should be trimmed something like -3 for that... :P Really that pic just confirms current DCS module as always do your infallible "evidences"... :pain: Whatever, a picture proves nothing at all without further details... :shocking:

 

 

What is this thread even about? I've lost track. What's the alleged problem with trim?
I'm not sure you want to know about it mate... it's being a long and rude fighting for nothing as everything points K4 module is nearly perfect regarding the subject. Trouble is professor Messerschmitt designed a fighter with a moving stabilizer trim instead on trim tabs, so that leads to a controls inversion due to compressibility and high speeds, that's clearly stated in German papers. The way they found to counter that is limiting useful nose down trim to only +1.15º for pilots safe, but at very high speeds you find out of trim and you've to hold the stick yourself. Not a problem in a real aircraft with long stick, but people at home uses short sticks so they find that uncomfortable. Everything shown here points the real deal was like that, and clearly a design feature, so as DCS module is really close to RL it features that previously unseen "detail". But some people don't want to accept that even though the shit load of evidences so they keep saying that has to be wrong because they are uncomfortable using their short sticks and any evidence shown is invalid for them. That's all.

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Понеслось...

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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- But some people don't want to accept that even though the shit load of evidences so they keep saying that has to be wrong because they are uncomfortable using their short sticks and any evidence shown is invalid for them. That's all.

 

Life is hard for people with a short stick.. :D

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Curiously, For Bf-109 G4, the estabilizer trim position in "normal flight" is "zero" and that is "neutral", as you can see in these photos (which are, stabilizer trim check marks) photos taken in flight formation.

The marks from upper to down are +2º, +1º, 0, and -6º in this aircraft.

 

12188245_10208166420100510_3352734638249183564_o.jpg

 

11063774_10208166420340516_8936406786165971462_o.jpg

 

You would be greatly astonished if you know that the pilot of this plane, Klaus Plaza, was in Duxford this summer. And I had a long talks to him as he was waiting the time to flight. And one of the items was trim. And what he said was that the maximal nose-down trim is only for cruise.... exactly as the WWS institute tested. And as we made in DCS...

 

I use only first hand info...

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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what he said was that the maximal nose-down trim is only for cruise....

 

Sincere question: what is the maximal nose-up trim for?

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Понеслось...
You don't know the half about Otto... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

 

Life is hard for people with a short stick.. :D
Definitely :D :D. I always recommend buying a long stick :music_whistling: :lol:.

 

 

You would be greatly astonished if you know that the pilot of this plane, Klaus Plaza, was in Duxford this summer. And I had a long talks to him as he was waiting the time to flight. And one of the items was trim. And what he said was that the maximal nose-down trim is only for cruise.... exactly as the WWS institute tested. And as we made in DCS...

 

I use only first hand info...

You would be greatly astonished if you know how many times we have tell that (and many more things) to Otto but he don't believe a thing without your gopro head mounting video of the whole interview, because he is quite sure you made it and you have no other thing in this world to take care of but demonstrating Otto trim is right :lol:. But I tell you, even if that video were possible, even with Klaus Plasa words in stone, Otto still won't believe it because he's uncomfortable with his short (very short and cheap) stick :D.

 

 

Sincere question: what is the maximal nose-up trim for?
You should ask to prof. Messerschmitt? :lol: Anyway, it's useful during landings with full flaps. But negative limit isn't a problem with compressibility so they didn't limit it.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Sincere question: what is the maximal nose-up trim for?

 

To have enough authority to maintain landing AoA with stripped elevator/stab and maximal forward CoG (with almost empty fuel tank).


Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Sincere question: what is the maximal nose-up trim for?

 

Counteract nose heaviness from deploying flaps?

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

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Nope mate, we all know about your eye sight problem with everything related with this subject, but if you look closely it's trimmed beyond. Also close in flight pictures are always taken from a slower plane, so the 109 had to fly really slow for sure. It would be stupid trying to fly at high cruise close formation while a Cessna or so holds the cameraman... :doh: So he was flying slow, with say ~ +0.30 trim? No way!! on your dreams he should be trimmed something like -3 for that... :P Really that pic just confirms current DCS module as always do your infallible "evidences"... :pain: Whatever, a picture proves nothing at all without further details... :shocking:

really?

12241706_10208276464731557_8149363841803028981_n.jpg?oh=fbb53055f6f2a93b746adbcd92505f5c&oe=56E9AE92

 

The picture was taken by John Dibbs from an OV-10 Bronco or SKYVAN

 

IMG_0095M.jpg

Academy_16.jpg

 

..... Trouble is professor Messerschmitt designed a fighter with a moving stabilizer trim instead on trim tabs,.....

Are you sure?? :music_whistling:

If this system is so bad .. why all Airbus have this system?


Edited by III/JG52_Otto_+
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You would be greatly astonished if you know that the pilot of this plane, Klaus Plaza, was in Duxford this summer. And I had a long talks to him as he was waiting the time to flight. And one of the items was trim. And what he said was that the maximal nose-down trim is only for cruise.... exactly as the WWS institute tested. And as we made in DCS...

 

I use only first hand info...

 

Do you have a video about that interview?

Klaus Plasa told you something about the 3 bricks and the GoG in the Bf-109G4?? :music_whistling:

 

If it's true this that you say now, ..the Manual of DCS: BF-109K4 is wrong?

Zero is the "normal" trim position, yes or Not??

 

12191929_10208180534613364_2143205775282400203_n.jpg?oh=ef0045cb0c573f5a4461d44541b49304&oe=56B0F09E


Edited by III/JG52_Otto_+
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Do you have a video about that interview?

Klaus Plasa told you something about the 3 bricks and the GoG in the Bf-109G4?? :music_whistling:

 

If it's true this that you say now, ..the Manual DCS: BF-109K4 is wrong?

Zero is the "normal" trim position, yes or Not??

 

12191929_10208180534613364_2143205775282400203_n.jpg?oh=ef0045cb0c573f5a4461d44541b49304&oe=56B0F09E

 

Could you go and... try to get Klaus yourself and ask him.

I even have the weight and balance chart for the Red 7 and have no need to ask about bricks...

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Do you have a video about that interview?

Klaus Plasa told you something about the 3 bricks and the GoG in the Bf-109G4?? :music_whistling:

 

If it's true this that you say now, ..the Manual DCS: BF-109K4 is wrong?

Zero is the "normal" trim position, yes or Not??

 

[/img]

 

I am not sure what you are driving at, but what else is new... if anything its a typo and should be 'neutral' and not 'normal'. Meaning 0 is no trim, positive or negative.

 

When will you let this go, you are really the only one that cant seem to figure this out.

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Could you go and... try to get Klaus yourself and ask him.

I even have the weight and balance chart for the Red 7 and have no need to ask about bricks...

 

The bf-109G4 of Klaus Plasa is very nose-heavy (No weapons or armor plates installed), and 3 ballast bricks (30Kg) was installed in the tail, for centering the CoG.

 

12194630_10208180180604514_8133909111160784760_o.jpg

 

It seems there are many things that Klaus Plasa has not told you. yes or No?

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The bf-109G4 of Klaus Plasa is very nose-heavy (No weapons or armor plates installed), and 3 ballast bricks (30Kg) was installed in the tail, for centering the CoG.

 

12194630_10208180180604514_8133909111160784760_o.jpg

 

It seems there are many things that Klaus Plasa has not told you. yes or No?

 

You need to read what he said, he has the "the weight and balance chart for the Red 7".

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I am not sure what you are driving at, but what else is new... if anything its a typo and should be 'neutral' and not 'normal'. Meaning 0 is no trim, positive or negative.

 

When will you let this go, you are really the only one that cant seem to figure this out.

 

Neutral = NO nose-heavy and NO tail-heavy

 

In a real Bf-109 in normal flight you must set the elevator trim to ZERO, (as previus pictures shown)

At the moment there are NOT speed or power setting, that the DCS:BF-109K4 can flight in "neutral" condition with trim in ZERO. That is not correct.

 

You need to read what he said, he has the "the weight and balance chart for the Red 7".

 

Yo-Yo said that "no need to ask about bricks".. and the bricks are there, and he don´t know it.


Edited by III/JG52_Otto_+
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Neutral = NO nose-heavy and NO tail-heavy

 

In a real Bf-109 in normal flight you must set the elevator trim to ZERO, (as previus pictures shown)

At the moment there are NOT speed or power setting, that the DCS:BF-109K4 can flight in "neutral" condition. That is not correct.

 

You are not correct. 0 on the trim wheel references the position of trim wheel. 0 means its neither positive or negative trim. A concept that has been explained to you over and over.

 

0 does not mean that the aircraft is magically rendered neither nose heavy or tail heavy, if there was such a magical setting, then there would be no need for trim at all.

 

Again, this has all been explained to you, repeatedly.

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