GBU 12 not reacting on lasing

[P3CFE]

Was trying to hit ship with GBU 12.

 

Did set Auto lasing to 15 sec.

Had Point track with with target pod.

Confirmed flasing L in Targetpod MFD.

 

Bomb missed.:cry:

 

Tried it several times and noticed with external weapon view, that the GBU 12 did not steer when lasing.

It did not react at all and just followed a balistic track.

 

Am i doing something wrong ??

 

Thanks for any input.

[Sabre-TLA]

Check the laser code. The laser code you are lasing with has to match the laser code programmed into the LGB.

 

Plus you need to drop the bomb so it has at least 8 seconds of guiding time.

 

At what altitude did you drop? Try from 6000' or higher.

[Firehead]

I believe you have to set the area where the TGP is pointing to the SPI as well, in order for the aircraft to be able to calculate proper release points/angles. Always put them on target for me. Try setting the laser to "latch" as well, I prefer to fire the laser for the entire duration until impact, provided that I can do so.

[Maverick-X]

I would fire the laser manually rather than using autolase. Apart from that, my assumption would be that your TGP did not generate the SPI so your drop point was wrong, you were too low or the target too fast

[P3CFE]

sunk the Ship

 

Oke, guys...thanks for thinking with me.

Checked al the items and posibillities you told me and could not find anything wrong.

 

But ...i sunk the ship ...:thumbup:

I first Lased the bridge area of the ship...though lasing, the GBU did not react.

 

Then I discovered that lasing an other part of the ship (like the ships hangar) did make the GBU react (wiggle itself onto the taget).

 

Is it possible that the reflection of the laser spot on a complex surface shape (like the bridge of the ship with all of its masts and antenna's) is defracted, so that the GBU does not see it clear enough ??.

It seems reasonable, But ..is this really coded into the Game.:shocking:....if so....GREAT !!:worthy:

[P3CFE]

No Luck

 

Tried the whole flight again, but this time very random results.:cry:

 

Tried different spots to lase...but 1 out of 4 GBU's react on lasing, no matter what i do.

 

Starting to suspect a bug.

 

Maybe somebody want to try the mission...and see what is wrong.

 

Thanks

1.ShowoffA10.miz

[Flagrum]

As always ... best to post a track ...

[Sheepherder]

Anecdotal, but DCS seems to have a hard time hitting a lased target that's significantly above the ground/sea level. So, trying to bullseye an airborne helicopter with a laser GBU seems to be impossible, even though it's apparently been done before.

[Shein]

How are you selecting the weapon? through the profile or the pylon in the DSMS?

sounds basic I know, but this was my problem for the longest time: I selected pylons in the DSMS and that defaults to a basic dumb bomb free fall profile. If you select the profile with the DMS when HUD is SOI, it selects the lasing profile.

[Yurgon]

Tried the whole flight again, but this time very random results.:cry:

 

Tried different spots to lase...but 1 out of 4 GBU's react on lasing, no matter what i do.

 

Starting to suspect a bug.

 

Maybe somebody want to try the mission...and see what is wrong.

 

Well, the mission doesn't really tell us what's wrong when you fly it, so a track would be much more helpful to pin down the source of the problem.

 

Anyway, I just flew the mission and dropped a few GBU-12s. My experience was that when I attacked the ship head-on, the bombs never picked up the laser and hit the water way behind the ship. When I approached the target from the rear, I scored 3 out of 3 hits, although two out of these seemed to hit the side of the ship even though the TGP was pointed at its centerline.

 

My advice so far would be to align with the ship and attack from the rear.

 

Maybe later I'll test what happens when, with a head-on approach, I point the TGP short of the ship for the release so that the bomb's ballistic path will take it closer to the (moving) target.

 

But I'd say it's not impossible that DCS also models some kind of laser spot dispersion, rendering it useless on certain objects and surfaces.

[Pinefang]

As Yurgon said a track would give more info about how you flew the mission. I got direct hits on the first seven however the last five dropped in pairs 8 lased fine but broke the lase at about 6 seconds before impact. I'm not sure why that happened but the successful drops tells me that things are working right. I selected auto lase, 12 seconds. Oh BTW It appears that I was being shot at which could have affected my lasing the last few seconds before impact. I was watching the F-6 view and didn't notice the Bogie.

[Maverick-X]

Well, the mission doesn't really tell us what's wrong when you fly it, so a track would be much more helpful to pin down the source of the problem.

 

Anyway, I just flew the mission and dropped a few GBU-12s. My experience was that when I attacked the ship head-on, the bombs never picked up the laser and hit the water way behind the ship. When I approached the target from the rear, I scored 3 out of 3 hits, although two out of these seemed to hit the side of the ship even though the TGP was pointed at its centerline.

 

My advice so far would be to align with the ship and attack from the rear.

 

Maybe later I'll test what happens when, with a head-on approach, I point the TGP short of the ship for the release so that the bomb's ballistic path will take it closer to the (moving) target.

 

But I'd say it's not impossible that DCS also models some kind of laser spot dispersion, rendering it useless on certain objects and surfaces.

 

My guess on this: A (dumb)bomb launched in CCRP is released in order to hit the target. A GBU-12 (if I am correct) is released to hit behind the target so it has more energy available in order to reach the target with the losses it will experience due to the flight path corrections.

 

Now if your target is moving fast and under the bow of the ballistic flight path (e.g. attack head-on) the seeker will not be able to find the target anymore.

 

I'd recommend CCIP bombing from high altitude if the target allows it. If not, an interesting try would be lining up the CCRP and manually releasing the bomb 5-10s before the CCRP-Timer would suggest to, by switching to CCIP and releasing the bomb from level flight.

[Sheepherder]

Anecdotal, but DCS seems to have a hard time hitting a lased target that's significantly above the ground/sea level. So, trying to bullseye an airborne helicopter with a laser GBU seems to be impossible, even though it's apparently been done before.

 

...And then I went and GBU'd an airborne Mi-8MTV last night. Though it still took a lot of trial and error. It seems like the laser GBU's seem to have issues under or over shooting targets if you lase at the wrong time.

[Yurgon]

Oh BTW It appears that I was being shot at which could have affected my lasing the last few seconds before impact. I was watching the F-6 view and didn't notice the Bogie.

 

I flew the mission a few more times yesterday and never noticed any incoming. I don't think there's anyone shooting at the player. Unless the Oliver Hazzard Perry decides to treat the A-10C as the hostile it actually is while dropping bombs on the ship. :D

 

[...] Now if your target is moving fast and under the bow of the ballistic flight path (e.g. attack head-on) the seeker will not be able to find the target anymore.

 

Yup, sounds plausible.

 

I'd recommend CCIP bombing from high altitude if the target allows it. If not, an interesting try would be lining up the CCRP and manually releasing the bomb 5-10s before the CCRP-Timer would suggest to, by switching to CCIP and releasing the bomb from level flight.

 

When I flew the mission again, I had several successful drops in CCRP where I pointed the SPI ahead of the target and then, after dropping the bomb, slewed the SPI onto the moving ship. I can't give any formula on how far to aim ahead of the target, but an idea would be to consider the approximate flight time, then position the SPI ahead of the target, see how long it takes the ship to move right into the SPI and then position the SPI so that the target should intersect it around the 10 second to impact mark. If not done terribly wrong, this should give the bomb a good chance to pick up the laser spot.

[P3CFE]

When I flew the mission again, I had several successful drops in CCRP where I pointed the SPI ahead of the target and then, after dropping the bomb, slewed the SPI onto the moving ship.

 

This helped me a lot, and made me hit the Friendly target (sorry about that:music_whistling:) much more. Thanks Yurgon !!

 

I did set the lasing time at 20 sec. approached the ship from behind, placed the tgt pod spi about 300 ft behind the stern of the ship (in the water), pickled at 8000 ft and when the Lasing started placed the spi on the bow of the ship.

The LGB 12 hit direct on the bow....Great:thumbup:

this worked several times.

 

The same sort procedure, flying in at the front of the ship always failed...the GBU did not see the Laser.

 

Makes you wonder if this must be done in Real Life also ..

 

thank you all for sharing youre thoughts in "how to Kill a friendly" :)

[Yurgon]

I did set the lasing time at 20 sec. [...]

 

I'd say 20 seconds is a bit too much. Most advice I found on the forum suggests to start lasing 8 to 12 seconds before impact. Personally, I've settled on 10 seconds and it seems to be working well.

 

thank you all for sharing youre thoughts in "how to Kill a friendly" :)

 

Pleasure. :D

[joemama]

I'm having some of the same problems. In the training tutorial I use the GBU-12 first, and I kill the target. then I go to the GBU-38 and do the same. Somehow in switching back to the laser-guided bomb something goes amiss. I make sure I use point track mode, then make the target SPI by using the TMS UP LONG command, and carefully line up for the bomb drop from at least 8000 feet AGL. But the bomb merrily drops in the middle of a field. It's a little difficult to accomplish the goals in Instant Action when I can't get some of my bombs to work.

[Yurgon]

Can you post a track?

 

I make sure I use point track mode, then make the target SPI by using the TMS UP LONG command, [...]

 

I know this is a bit confusing and the in-game training doesn't do a terribly good job of explaining it IMHO.

 

The thing is, TMS UP LONG (with TGP as SOI) doesn't make the target your SPI. It makes the TGP your SPI generator, meaning that wherever the TGP looks, that's your SPI. The current SPI generator is typically shown on the lower left of the HUD. With TGP as SPI generator, it reads "TGP". When you start a mission or start the aircraft, it's usually STPT (Steerpoint).

 

In essence, it's a common mistake (for me, that is :D) to drop a bomb on the steerpoint instead of where the TGP is pointing, especially when steerpoint and target are in close proximity.

 

From your description, that's not what goes wrong when you drop the bomb, but it took me a good long while to understand that the SPI is generated rather than fixed at the position the TGP was looking at when TMS UP LONG was pressed, that's why I think the long-winded response to a problem you don't have is justified. :smartass:

 

Coming back on topic, your description sounds okay, you'll need to post a track or describe in more detail what you do before a bomb misses.

[JG-1_Vogel]

A common mistake I used to make was selecting GBU-12 direct from the DSMS page instead of selecting the profile with TMS left/right short which reverts the GBU to it's default profile which won't include lase time for Auto lase, which might be one reason why you can't get it to always track.

 

Also look for the "tail" which indicates direction to your current SPI, if it's coming from a steerpoint you know the SPI isn't set on the target

[PFunk1606688187]

In essence, it's a common mistake (for me, that is :D) to drop a bomb on the steerpoint instead of where the TGP is pointing, especially when steerpoint and target are in close proximity.

 

Thats why its a good idea to deliberately drop on waypoints. TGP LOS can be occluded or masked whereas the terrain database works no matter the aircraft's attitude, or even range to the target.

[Yurgon]

Thats why its a good idea to deliberately drop on waypoints. TGP LOS can be occluded or masked whereas the terrain database works no matter the aircraft's attitude, or even range to the target.

 

Do you drop all bombs on waypoints, is that your SOP? What circumstances should people take into consideration? Is it your recommendation that everyone should do that? What's your preferred and quickest way to set and select a waypoint (assuming that the target is not located at a pre-defined waypoint)? Or do you mean people should train that technique in order add it to their "toolbox" for when it makes sense to use it?

 

I ask all this because there are dozens of ways your post could be read and interpreted, and I'm not in the mood to dance around each of these until, some 5 pages from here, we finally understand what each of us was trying to say in the first place. :smilewink:

 

Basically, dropping bombs on waypoints (markpoints, especially) can be tremendously useful, but I rarely do that and I very rarely suffer from masked TGP on ingress. It's a nice trick to have at your disposal, but IMO it's most useful under certain conditions (e.g. mountainous terrain, NOE ingress, multiple-JDAMs-in-single-attack, heavy-jinking-ingress).

 

If you elaborate on the conditions you have in mind, we'll probably agree about which of them this type of SPI-selection is most useful for. :thumbup:

[PFunk1606688187]

In the context of PGMs dropping on a waypoint makes the process more user friendly because you can slave a TGP to the steerpoint, drop on the steerpoint and regardless of masking your CCRP symbology will be correct. Even if you drop in some other mode or are buddy lasing the ability to slave the TGP to the steerpoint generated SPI allows you to not have to worry about the TGP LOS becoming stabilized on a different point than the one you intend to target.

 

TGP generated SPIs are slippery so you can lose time, become more heads down focused, and in general lose SA trying to make it work if something goes wrong. With a slaved SPI generated by a steerpoint that doesn't move you have peace of mind so you can focus on being heads out of the pit, spying for threats, managing SA, and in general focusing on things other than the sensors for the attack run. You might be able to make the argument that you should be good enough to avoid these issues but to me thats under-utilizing the potential of the systems. The whole point is to lessen pilot workload and lower task saturation. Most of the DCS A-10C pilots are probably far more heads down than they could be with a more relaxed process.

 

For sharing a SPI via datalink I find the use of the TGP generated SPI is beneficial but once I'm going for an attack I'm going to generate the waypoint as a reference most of the time and almost always when employing PGMs. Its just more sensible and costs almost no time using the correct systems and ensures a near 100% successful attack. It costs a bare few seconds to make a waypoint from a TGP generated SPI while having to reattack because of a failed attack is costly in terms of time and security. The more attacks you do the more jeopardy you're in.

 

In general I find that sim pilots do the exact opposite of what real pilots do with the same tools. Most of the upgrades for the C are designed to make a pilot more heads up, more eyes out, more focused on flying without having to fiddle with switches. Most sim pilots tend to over focus on sensors in a heads down mindset and bugger about with the TGP slew mid attack and weld their eyes to the MFCD. The TGP is for finding a target and generating coordinates and sensor data. Once you have that there's no good reason to be looking at it. With a steerpoint you have 100% peace of mind that that SPI is staying where it should. With a TGP generated SPI you have to actually look at it to be sure, and so be more heads down. Thats a nono.

 

This is mostly concerned with Bomb on Coordinate style attacks. In a more Bomb on Target style attack, ala CCIP, I'd be more interested in using visual references to target with a waypoint only pointing me in the vicinity of the target, but thats a whole other can of worms.

 

And as always, read the signature.

Edited April 17, 2015 by P*Funk

[StandingCow]

Not sure how well DCS handles lasing on ships since those aren't usual targets?

 

Test it on a ground vehicle to make sure you have everything set up right. You already said your TGP was your SPI, Auto lase set to on with a lase time of whatever (I use 7 seconds)...

 

Only thing I can think of is are you selecting the bombs manually or with the DMS? If you select the weapons manually you aren't using/activating the profile.

Edited April 17, 2015 by StandingCow

[Dejjvid]

A waypoint (steerpoint) is actually an overkill. If you wanna BOC, do an offset mark from TGP, set SPI to mark and deliver. But for GBU-12, I'd say you primarily should use them for BOT and save your 38's for BOC.

[Yurgon]

In the context of PGMs dropping on a waypoint makes the process more user friendly because you can slave a TGP to the steerpoint, drop on the steerpoint and regardless of masking your CCRP symbology will be correct. Even if you drop in some other mode or are buddy lasing the ability to slave the TGP to the steerpoint generated SPI allows you to not have to worry about the TGP LOS becoming stabilized on a different point than the one you intend to target.

 

I mostly agree.

 

But I can't help thinking about different scenarios and evaluating the pros and cons.

 

Dropping on a steerpoint requires the target to be stationary. It also means you can't make any last moment adjustments or fine-tuning. It's not well suited for LGBs (unless someone else lases).

 

I'd say it's a great tool to have at your disposal and can make life easier with certain target types, but personally I'm not yet convinced that I should make this my default attack style with CCRP.

 

TGP generated SPIs are slippery so you can lose time, become more heads down focused, and in general lose SA trying to make it work if something goes wrong. With a slaved SPI generated by a steerpoint that doesn't move you have peace of mind so you can focus on being heads out of the pit, spying for threats, managing SA, and in general focusing on things other than the sensors for the attack run. You might be able to make the argument that you should be good enough to avoid these issues but to me thats under-utilizing the potential of the systems. The whole point is to lessen pilot workload and lower task saturation. Most of the DCS A-10C pilots are probably far more heads down than they could be with a more relaxed process.

 

Agreed.

 

But you didn't (directly) answer one of my questions: How do you set the steerpoint?

 

My guess would be to create a markpoint using TGP and then set that markpoint as steerpoint. That would mean pushing a few more buttons while setting up for the attack, providing what you call peace of mind during the attack run. I think it's some sort of workload-trade. It means more button-pushing and more workload in the setup-stage and less of these during the attack run - although a well executed attack run shouldn't see people fiddling with and worrying about the TGP all the time anyway.

 

I still think we have different conditions in mind. I think of a straigh-in CCRP-attack from Angels 15 where there's not much risk of the TGP getting masked by anything. In that scenario, the advantages of the steerpoint-attack seem to fade away unless something unexpected happens.

 

In general I find that sim pilots do the exact opposite of what real pilots do with the same tools. Most of the upgrades for the C are designed to make a pilot more heads up, more eyes out, more focused on flying without having to fiddle with switches. Most sim pilots tend to over focus on sensors in a heads down mindset and bugger about with the TGP slew mid attack and weld their eyes to the MFCD. The TGP is for finding a target and generating coordinates and sensor data. Once you have that there's no good reason to be looking at it. With a steerpoint you have 100% peace of mind that that SPI is staying where it should. With a TGP generated SPI you have to actually look at it to be sure, and so be more heads down. Thats a nono.

 

I think all that heads-down stuff is fairly natural for us sim-pilots. Without zoom, targets are very hard or impossible to spot on the ground. Many missions, including stock missions and campaigns, require very little SA. AI wingmen magically follow the player through clouds and valleys.

 

Being too much heads-down is a bad habit I'm only beginning to get rid off. Small tricks like dropping bombs on steerpoints rather than on TGP SPI can help with that, so thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter. :thumbup:

 

This is mostly concerned with Bomb on Coordinate style attacks. In a more Bomb on Target style attack, ala CCIP, I'd be more interested in using visual references to target with a waypoint only pointing me in the vicinity of the target, but thats a whole other can of worms.

 

Agreed.