Keeping up with AI P-51? How? They're always faster!

[burzum793]

OK, I'm a newbie but I can start and land the P51 and keep it in the air. :)

 

But how do I properly control my speed? When I'm doing the gyro sight tutorial, the AI controlled P-51 always manage to get out of my range and I can't keep up. :( No matter of how much I put into the manifold pressure or RPM. They always seem to be faster. Gear and flaps are up as well.

 

So what do I wrong?

Edited December 19, 2014 by burzum793

[dooom]

how is your trim?

 

the 51 will bleed E if not trimmed up. do you have yaw askew with your rudders?

[Art-J]

Are You using "game flight mode"? IIRC, the player's Mustang is quite a bit slower when in this mode, compared to full sim setting.

[QuiGon]

The AI uses a different flight modell, so that might be the reason why they can fly faster than the player.

[burzum793]

Thank you guys! No, I'm using the simulation flight model.

 

@dooom I think you're right. :doh: Besides the tail rudder at 5° and trimming it back to 0° after starting I haven't tried to use them. Now that you mention that... yes it is logical... I'm going to play with the trim settings. Just one more thing: How would I trim for speed? I've already read that the P51 requires a lot trimming for different situations. I'll have to try that after work today.

[julian265]

I believe as long as the slip ball is centred (ie, no slip), it doesn't matter what your trim is set to. (Although it would for a real pilot, who's muscles would get tired).

 

Either stick forces, or trim tabs are used to keep the control surfaces where you need them to be. Therefore as far as efficiency goes, it doesn't matter which.

[weta904]

Have you tried -Mixture Emergency Full Rich - LALT M

[Jerkzilla]

Wasn't that mixture setting only used when the carburetor or something failed and you needed to ensure enough fuel is getting in?

[Art-J]

It was. Catching up with AI should be easily possible with "Run" mixture setting, unless they fly faster after recent patches (haven't tested for a while).

[Holbeach]

Have you tried WEP (E).

 

This will increase your boost from 61 to 67 ins,

[burzum793]

Have you tried WEP (E).

 

This will increase your boost from 61 to 67 ins,

 

What is WEP please? I haven't had much to do with flying before I've got in touch with DCS after I've tried it at a friends place and like challenges. So I'm not very familiar with any specific terminology yet but willing to learn. However I prefer learning by doing than reading a 500 page manual after work. But I don't mind reading some sections if you point me to it and say it's required.

 

I have tried it again to catch up but didn't made it again. I've watched the AI flying and seen it flies at ~500mph... I'm clearly not able to get my plane up to that speed except in a descent.

 

Thanks for your help so far guys, seems to a be friendly forum and community! :thumbup:

 

Edit: Figured out what WEP means: War Emergency Power. But it didn't made a big difference. I've managed to hit the AI a few times (not enough to make it go down) but obviously enough to make it flee... It managed to get away again! :( I must do something seriously wrong. I'll see if I can record a video some time soon.

 

Also it seems that I get slower or can't run on full manifold pressure when I was running the engine at it for some time. I'm aware that I stress and can break the engine if I run it out of the green zone for some time. It's all about energy management, isn't it?

Edited December 20, 2014 by burzum793

[Mar]

You can't run on WEP for too long, it's called emergency power for a reason. Watch your temps even at military power (61 man) and try not to run WEP for more than 5 minutes.

[Art-J]

Which mission are we talking about? Post a track of one of Your flights, cause something's not quite right. As an example, I've just checked the gunnery tutorial mission and before firing a shot I could easily keep with P-51 drones at cruise settings (42", 2700 RPM). After hitting them, they tend to run faster indeed, but even though, I could catch them not even using full power.

 

As a more general note, I'd also say reading "500 page manual" at least once might be a good idea after all. How are You going to learn things "by doing" when you might be doing something wrong time after time after time without even realizing it? Repeating bad habits gets you nowhere.

[Scing]

Keeping up with AI P-51? How? They're always faster!

 

Could he be incorrectly using prop rpm and engine? I use a combo depending on the situation.

 

I most definitely learned takeoff and landings by trial and error but there's times I'm not in the mood for a proper descent so I do crazy turns and crap to bleed speed and altitude to put whatever bird down safely.

[weta904]

p32 Manual

 

War Emergency Power

In order to provide an extra boost to the engine in extreme situations, the throttle can be moved past the gate stop by the quadrant to break the safety wire. The engine will then be opened up to its absolute limit and will give approximately 6 in. of additional manifold pressure in excess of the normal full throttle setting of 61 in. (with mixture control set to RUN or AUTO RICH and prop set for 3000 RPM.) This throttle reserve is called War Emergency Power (WEP) and should be used only in extreme situations. If used for more than 5 minutes at a time, vital parts of the engine may be damaged.

WEP provides no benefit at altitudes below 5,000 feet. The throttle alone provides more than enough power to exceed the operating limits of the engine at these altitudes.

[WildBillKelsoe]

If you climb twice their altitude while keeping speed, you will catch them by a good dive.

 

Just keep an eye on oil dilution and temperature, and keep both scoops open.

The key to WW2 birds is altitude, to compensate for distance, and to gain a Dicta advantage.

 

Remember, immelmann versus split s

[Holbeach]

OK, I'm a newbie but I can start and land the P51 and keep it in the air. :)

 

But how do I properly control my speed? When I'm doing the gyro sight tutorial, the AI controlled P-51 always manage to get out of my range and I can't keep up. :( No matter of how much I put into the manifold pressure or RPM. They always seem to be faster. Gear and flaps are up as well.

 

So what do I wrong?

 

I tried the P 51 v P 51 mission and allowed the ai to chase me on the straight and level at 6,500 ft. and using Tacview.

 

I pulled away at a steady 10 to 12 knots throughout and then turned and climbed to 30,000 ft easily pulling away until he gave up.

 

A second try using WEP, gave an extra 5 kts on the straight. Supercharger changed gear around 18,000 ft. Engine was struggling after 19 mins. and long climb to 30,000 ft.

 

Conclusion is, ai is slower in every respect.

 

The good news is, there is only one thing left, technique, which will improve with practice.

 

GL.

 

.

[burzum793]

OK, I've downloaded Tacview (great tool btw!) and I guess I know what I'm doing wrong. By looking at the recording I see that the AI flies a perfect straight line without moving a lot up and down like I do. I guess I'm wasting energy by doing that.

 

I think at around 11:00 in the recording it starts getting away from me. At the end it was at ~4km away form me and I could not keep up with it any more. At least I've hit it a few times before...

 

You can also see that I've tried to climb and descent as suggested to gain some speed but this didn't work out very well either.

Tacview-20141221-151330-DCS.txt.acmi.zip

[Art-J]

Gunnery tutorial mission with instructor, or the solo one? I've just tried the solo three times and the scenario was always the same: the right Mustang turns right and flies slower, so you can catch it without effort; the left one is indeed more challenging, it tries to extend all the time. Nevertheless, catching him, although more difficult no doubt, is still possible.

 

Check the replay in the attachment. At first I went after the right one and popped a shot in him, to make him run away. That didn't make him fly faster though, so I left him and went after the other, more troublesome one. Hit him once or twice as well, to make him run. And run he did, but despite using only max continuous power setting (~46" and 2700 RPM), I was able to keep up with him most of the time and spent quite a few minutes attempting to do so as You will see. Even when he climbed sharply, all I had to do was to "cut the corner" and wait for him to get back. After abysmal gunnery show (I'm not good at it at all) shot him down at last. I kept running at ~ 46" all the time and didn't even spend much time tuning the rudder trim, just set it to keep the ball more or less centered.

 

Maybe the second drone is programmed to keep certain distance from you all the time, maybe If I tried using military power he would extend anyway, I don't know. I remember the times when AI Mustangs seemed to be more difficult to catch. Version 1.2.12 is certainly not that case, however.

1.2.12_target_practice.zip

[WildBillKelsoe]

It's got something to do with the modeling or whatever.

You're right. AI uses simplified flight model. We use professional flight model.

 

In addition, AI is superior in keeping it straight, while us - humans , rarely excel in keeping a decent rudder. Best you can do is learn to fight against another human P-51.

[limbo696]

I played the training mission last night and heavily damaged one of the AI planes engines and it was terribly smoking. When the AI slowly pulled away with me and his damaged engine even though I was at full WEP and trying to fly efficiently as possible, I was like WTF? This happened to me on like 3 or 4 occasions.

[burzum793]

OK, thank you guys! I think it is the AI as well. At least I don't think anymore I'm completely incompetent. ;)