Open beta flight dynamics...

[NeilWillis]

With respect to your first statement in your response, I did, and I do.

 

I do criticise constructively, I just don't go overboard and decry the whole thing simply because some aspects still require work, or don't fit in with my idea of perfection.

 

I do however consider it important to treat the developers here with the respect they deserve, and give positive feedback when appropriate instead of a constant negativity, which I am sure you'd soon get pissed off with if you were in their shoes.

 

They've done a tremendous job in bringing the WW2 stuff to fruition after some setbacks with their partners. The Bf-109 is a success is it not?

 

Just lighten up a little here Solty, we're both enthusiasts of a great package. I accept you have a perfectly valid opinion too, and you have my respect. I do however feel you are being over critical, and assume that the developers are going to give up. I don't.

 

Please, let's not make this personal by assuming I am wealthy. I am here to discuss the Bf-109, not politics of relative wealth. There are plenty of poor folk in the UK too.

Edited December 26, 2014 by NeilWillis

[DB 605]

I would rather see constructive feedback instead of just praising the module that is still not finished.

 

I am just oposig the idea of beeing overly protective of the product that is still unfinished

 

Of course, but where exactly you see this "praising" and "overly protective" comments?

 

From what i can see generally all posters are agreeing that some work is left and needed to finish FM.

[Flagrum]

If you read both my posts you would know that you are actually agreeing with me.

 

I would rather see constructive feedback instead of just praising the module that is still not finished.

 

I am just oposig the idea of beeing overly protective of the product that is still unfinished

I don't think, that being overly protective is an issue here - or in DCS in general. In fact, the community is usually quite picky and can wind up on the slightest issues or details. But while that is normally not meant to disrespect the work and the efforts of the devs, sometimes it can be percieved as quite massive. And therefore I believe that it does not harm to also give credit where credit is due. After all the devs are humans as well and I bet, if someone once in a while also credits them for their work, it is a good thing - or rather, should be the normal, sensitive thing to do. At least better as if the only feedback they ever get would be negative (i.e. there is a bug, this is wrong, that is false, etc, etc)

[Yo-Yo]

-You can't bind your keys or calibrate your stick sensitivity during missions in MP.

 

-You can't change your convergence, set other parameters of the plane before you spawn(TRIMING the 109 or 190 maybe?).

 

 

But you can do it in SP, can't you? As accurate and convenient for yourself you can. And if you have to change it right during the MP game it seems like you try to fly a real plane having no ground maintenance.

I think that MP is good to play as you polish your plane for yourself perfectly in SP.

[Wolf Rider]

 

 

~

~

 

-You can't change your convergence, ~

 

~

 

 

 

 

Flyers (some) in past sim/ game series have abused that, in using some really outlandish settings

[SlipBall]

Flyers (some) in past sim/ game series have abused that, in using some really outlandish settings

 

 

I cannot see how that would be an advantage on-line. If the ballistics' are historically correct, and they are modeled accurately. Then the pilots selection for convergence should not matter at all(except to his own use.) For example, in my case I like to ambush by sneaking up behind and close to under 100M, so I would like to be able to set my guns accordingly, before taking to the air...

 

does anyone know if it is possible to change the convergence now in SP, is that what yo-yo was saying up above?

Edited December 26, 2014 by GT 5.0

[jermin]

Convergence settings, even for a engine-mounted cannon, make a big difference for a WWII pilot's gunnery. And it was certainly not that hard to adjust them by ground crew. With an ideal (vertical) convergence setting for MK 108, the cannon shells would adhere to the pilot's line of sight as long as possible.

 

The official convergence settings of Luftwaffe fighters, from what I read, were actually optimized for low to mid-level pilots instead of ace pilots. These settings aimed for a larger dispersion area over the distance so that it was easier for rookie pilots to score a hit.

[Solty]

But you can do it in SP, can't you? As accurate and convenient for yourself you can. And if you have to change it right during the MP game it seems like you try to fly a real plane having no ground maintenance.

I think that MP is good to play as you polish your plane for yourself perfectly in SP.

I have an old joystick YoYo, it can decalibrate at a given time. If it does, I have to leave the game and let down my friends.

 

It was not an issue in any other game and I see it as a standard of gaming overall to be always able to change your settings to suit you at any given time. Granted though, a minor problem among others that I have pointed out.

 

Flyers (some) in past sim/ game series have abused that, in using some really outlandish settings

That is an absurd. How can you use the convergence to "cheat"? If somebody wants to have a convergence to 800m he should be able to do that. Pilot decided about it IRL and ground to crew did that for them, so they can be the best they can on the field and help their friends in need.

 

I always used 250m and I feel realy uncomfortable with the setting we have in the game.

[SlipBall]

 

That is an absurd. How can you use the convergence to "cheat"? If somebody wants to have a convergence to 800m he should be able to do that. Pilot decided about it IRL and ground to crew did that for them, so they can be the best they can on the field and help their friends in need.

 

I always used 250m and I feel realy uncomfortable with the setting we have in the game.

 

 

At 800m a bullet would not pierce human skin, 250m is really too far to be very effective

[acerus77]

At 800m a bullet would not pierce human skin

:doh:

[sobek]

At 800m a bullet would not pierce human skin, 250m is really too far to be very effective

 

Say what now? There are sniper kills with .50BMG far in excess of 1km. You wont hit anything in an airborne scenario but against unarmored targets, the bullets are still extremely effective.

[SlipBall]

we are in 1944 now with its ammo's performance, we are not in Afghanistan 2014 :D

If you want results you need to be close, asuming that the ballistics are correct in this game, convergence must be correct also...a bullet stream fired from a gun at 50 meters distance away, will fit into an area fifty times as small as the same bullet stream fired from 500m away. Keep in mind that bullets lose power over distance aswell. Using the same example, a bullet fired at 50m can puncture light to medium armor. But at 500m it may even bounce off human skin :pilotfly:

[Solty]

At 800m a bullet would not pierce human skin, 250m is really too far to be very effective

 

U wot m8?

 

.50 cal is not 9mm. Average pilot had convergence at 300m, I like 250m.

 

100m is so close for MGs that you are unable to keep the enemy in your sights for long enough to make real damage. If you like it though, then why not?

 

You clearly have no idea how this works. That shot was made with the ammo that is exactly the same as the one used during WW2. .50 cal sniper rifle

Edited December 27, 2014 by Solty

[julian265]

At 800m a bullet would not pierce human skin, 250m is really too far to be very effective

 

You are overestimating the rate that bullet speeds drop.

 

from http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/weapons-systems-tech-/50-cal-machine-guns-vs-20-mm-autocannons-aircraft-31037-10.html

 

M2 .50 HMG:

Muzzle Velocity 863m/s

100m Velocity 841m/s

500m Velocity 767m/s

 

100m Penetration 15mm

500m Penetration 13mm

[Foul Ole Ron]

That is an absurd. How can you use the convergence to "cheat"? If somebody wants to have a convergence to 800m he should be able to do that. Pilot decided about it IRL and ground to crew did that for them, so they can be the best they can on the field and help their friends in need.

 

Maybe earlier in the war they let pilots fiddle with convergence but with the later Mustangs equipped with the K-14 gunsight the USAF had two ranges and harmonisation patterns and that's what pretty much all pilots flew with depending on the mission requirement. Probably more correct to term it a harmonisation pattern as it wasn't designed by then to punch a plate sized hole at the ideal range but to hit a variety of areas. Mightn't have suited those guys who'd used fixed sights earlier and liked to get in really close but probably a lot of them had either been killed, promoted to staff or rotated home by then.

 

That being said I think it is actually possible to adjust the harmonisation pattern in DCS but it would be extremely difficult to get done right by a user. There was a good thread on it all a while back which had some great diagrams in it showing the actual result of the harmonisation pattern used by the USAF for various ranges:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=95689&highlight=convergence&page=6

[SlipBall]

if you look at the German aces they seemed to prefer 70m, before they opened fire...I'm not at all sure that the ballistics in game are correct, just judging from my own experience using the P-51 guns. I have not fired yet the 109's guns at a target, so as to evaluate for myself what I think of them :P

[Flagrum]

we are in 1944 now with its ammo's performance, we are not in Afghanistan 2014 :D

They were already past using blackpowder ... (actually, the mentioned .50 BMG was invented around 1910 ;o)

[Art-J]

Dear Lord. OK, we're already deep into off-topic territory, but seriously, GT 5.0, re. bullet energy vs. human skin, I really hope that was a trolling attempt. If not, let's say Your estimates are borderline-acceptable for handguns ammo, but for any rifle cartridge of about .30 caliber You have to multiply these by about 10 and much more for any .50 cartridge.

 

And since not all that much has actually changed in ballistic performance of firearms since the beginning of 20th century, I'll just remind that Enfields, Springfields and Garands of our grand-grandpas and grandpas had iron sights scaled up to 800 - 1300 yards (not counting the optional 2500-2800 yds sights) for a reason, while 0.50 round was designed by Mr Browning for anti-aircraft and anti-tank (tank as understood in WWI era) usage, with steel armor penetration capabilities of about 0.5-0.75 inch at 550 yds.

 

But... although convergence pattern question is quite interesting from upcoming WWII modules point of view, maybe let's start getting back to flight dynamics topic, before this thread gets closed :D.

[Alladyn]

At 800m a bullet would not pierce human skin, 250m is really too far to be very effective

:drunk:

[gavagai]

:doh:

 

+1

 

:doh:

[Solty]

if you look at the German aces they seemed to prefer 70m, before they opened fire...I'm not at all sure that the ballistics in game are correct, just judging from my own experience using the P-51 guns. I have not fired yet the 109's guns at a target, so as to evaluate for myself what I think of them :P

 

Distance is not a problem for Germans because their Minengeshoss ammunition is HE. Which is explosive.

 

Hartmann liked to be close to be sure to score hits, not because bullets would not harm a plane lol.

 

OK... you may proceede with the topic :P

Edited December 27, 2014 by Solty

[NeilWillis]

So it's flight dynamics of bullets all of a sudden? And such expert testimony too. I particularly enjoy reading expert eyewitness accounts of stuff like bullets bouncing off human skin at a range of 800 yards!

 

Come on guys, let's keep it sane, and if you want to discuss convergence issues on other platforms, do so, just start a thread!

 

Normal service will be resumed when Sithspawn has digested his festive fare, and been chained to his office chair again.

[SlipBall]

yep a new thread is in order if someone wants to pursue this subject :smilewink:

[Wolf Rider]

 

~

 

That is an absurd. How can you use the convergence to "cheat"?

 

~

 

 

 

I didn't say "cheat"... I said "outlandish settings"

[Harpoon]

So it's flight dynamics of bullets all of a sudden? And such expert testimony too. I particularly enjoy reading expert eyewitness accounts of stuff like bullets bouncing off human skin at a range of 800 yards!

 

how do i oxygen :megalol: