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Unable to spin ...


jpdesvals

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Hello ,

 

Firstable thank all the team for this work :

 

-engine management

-take offs and landings so realistic and fun for a tail dragger experience with the extrem rudder use !! realy challenging with a 20 knots cross wind to!

- 3 D model beautifull

 

Problem now :

 

1)At low speed high angle of attack the stall is sooo stable you just fell gently out of the sky and recover easily

2) when the stall begin , kick right rudder and continue pulling the stick back hard it s almost impossible do make more than one spin turn ...the airplane just gently stabilize himself again ..

3)same with the TF51

4)same with the accelerate spin ( or snap roll depend of the indicated speedand the use of the rudder ) , just a quarter of a roll and stop!!..

 

I precise that i am both pilot airplane and helicopter and i did practice aerobatic on cap 10 and pitts s2B (just to say that i know what is the behaviour and the instability of a low speed high angle of attack airplane) where is the problem ?

 

For exemple CLOD have way much more realistic flight model for spin , stall ..from my point of view .

 

i practice simulation for a long time and all my setting are on simulation ..

 

Was the real BF 109 so stable that it was almost impossible to enter a spin ..not shure...

 

I must be missing somethingin the game settings .If some cleaver brain can help ..thx

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Was the real BF 109 so stable that it was almost impossible to enter a spin ..not shure...

 

Yep, that is a function of the LE slats.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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Should be not impossible but more difficult to enter the spin then wing without slats. Also 109 dont have slats on the whole wing lenght.

 

So it should be possible to enter spin with 109 but just its need more brutal crosscontrol force i think.

 

I also think that spin characterterictis is little off in DCS - expecially with Fw 190 D-9 which dont like to enter a spin just quarter of flick roll even with keeping full stick back. Dunno about 109 casue i dont have it still.

 

I think most close in spin/stall behaviour actually is BOS.

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The 109's featured leading edge slats which were designed to help reduce spins and enable them to be recovered more easily once in a spin.

 

Is modeled entirely correctly? *shrug* I have faith in Yo-yo and co's ability to produce a quality and accurate sim, if something is wrong they will attend to it.

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I agree with kwiatek , the spin caracteristic must be a little off in dcs .

 

Even with LE slat no aircraft can t spin unless there are protections like in Airbus ;) .

 

The tf 51 has the same behaviour problem from my point off view (no LE slates) but same easy spin recovery and no Way to make more than one spin turn.

 

My point was just to share my feelings . When you re dogfighting online the part of difficulty is made by the behaviour of the Aircraft at the limit of her fly caracteristic .

 

I must be a little bit fussy but whith such a tremendous work they can push the limit a little bit far :)

Thx for responding guys!

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I was just about to post another thread regarding how awkward the spin characteristics of the 109 K4 are ...

 

Yesterday at some MP sessions I wanted to play around, or simply loose altitude rapidly, so, I decided to spin it... First I flew straight, and started bleeding off speed pulling the stick and waiting for the nose to drop... There was always a left wing dip first ( tests made at idle ), so, as the aircraft was already "wanting" to spiral to the left, I applied full left rudder and back stick...

 

I will probably record a track, but what I can say is that the aircraft spins very strangely, stopping the rotation here and there, then starting again an incipient spiral, then suddenly stopping... Not much pitch oscillation though...

 

Tried to spin to the right, obtaining more or less the same results.

 

Nt saying it is wrong, but it's certainly weird ....


Edited by jcomm

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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Fw 190 D-9 behave in similar way ( or even more arcadish) like you describe 109 behavior. It just make some quarter of flick roll even if you still got stick back then recovery byself.

 

P-51 in DCS is little more prone to spin during such stall. I was expected that Fw 190 would be not too much different here but in DCS is very easy to fly and too much spin proof.

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Tried this myself

 

 

Just something for a forum thread.

 

Only way I managed to get the K-4 into a spin at 3000m or 6000m:

- Stick fully south-west

- Push left rudder fully

- Release

 

The bird will spin, but after a few rounds will correct itself without any action from the pilot.

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I just took the Dora up and ran it thru the same routine I use teaching spins.

 

It entered a power off spin, took ~3 turns to stabilize and I allowed it to spin 10 rotations to ensure it was well developed.

 

Using PAVE, to recovered normally in three spins once controls were input.

 

Power off behaviors seem just fine.


Edited by Crumpp
typo it is an R - PARE not PAVE

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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Hello ,

 

Firstable thank all the team for this work :

 

-engine management

-take offs and landings so realistic and fun for a tail dragger experience with the extrem rudder use !! realy challenging with a 20 knots cross wind to!

- 3 D model beautifull

 

Problem now :

 

1)At low speed high angle of attack the stall is sooo stable you just fell gently out of the sky and recover easily

2) when the stall begin , kick right rudder and continue pulling the stick back hard it s almost impossible do make more than one spin turn ...the airplane just gently stabilize himself again ..

3)same with the TF51

4)same with the accelerate spin ( or snap roll depend of the indicated speedand the use of the rudder ) , just a quarter of a roll and stop!!..

 

I precise that i am both pilot airplane and helicopter and i did practice aerobatic on cap 10 and pitts s2B (just to say that i know what is the behaviour and the instability of a low speed high angle of attack airplane) where is the problem ?

 

For exemple CLOD have way much more realistic flight model for spin , stall ..from my point of view .

 

i practice simulation for a long time and all my setting are on simulation ..

 

Was the real BF 109 so stable that it was almost impossible to enter a spin ..not shure...

 

I must be missing somethingin the game settings .If some cleaver brain can help ..thx

 

I disagree with you. I am only private pilot single engine land licensed and have spun the 109 to the left more than 10 rotations before recovering while fighting a P-51 in instant action mission. I even managed to perform an unrecoverable inverted spin to the right. How I entered such conditions are not entirely known to me but entrance to a spin requires a cross-controlled condition of left or right bank, nose up attitude, and an uncoordinated or cross coordinated input of rudder opposite direction of bank.

 

In the 109, chasing a P-51 into a vertical fight, and not stepping on the right rudder while the left wing stalls in a right bank will put you into a left spin and vice versa. This is clearly an incipient spin and at time so subtle I feel as though my nose is coming down gently to the left and when I think I just did a slow hammerhead I observe my nose continue to track left into and increased flat turn I which I am now spinning. Correction is stick full forward and pedal opposite direction of spin. The 109 will spin but must be slow enough in a cross-controlled condition to do so. Just pulling the nose north and stalling wit hour rudder use is at times enough. I still can't survive and inverted spin.

 

1) I'm an aircraft of such weight, the stall is always a gentle falling out of the sky. This is not a 747. Also, there are leading edge wing slats that increases flow of air which I think is also why over stress breaks that part of the wing.

 

2) leading edge wing slats are the primary culprit here. Stall proceeds from wing root tot the tip but the leading edge wing slats hamper stall over that portion of the wing. Why a bank and yank yields mushy behavior and the trim tab being set to the left results in typical stall roll to the left.

 

3) not sure about P-51 but then the wing is laminar flow with unique boundary layer flow conditions, larger control surfaces, but can still stall and spin.

 

4) I have entered the conditions you state are not occurring or too softly an encounter. I recommend you spend more time with the bird. It is conventional but has quirks and features not present on typical aircraft. Tail area alone gives clue that this bird is fast but has handling challenges.

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Well, after posting my message above in this thread I checked the K4 Manual pages, I also get that spin can be tricky, particularly right spins...

 

Since I know it is really complex to model non-normal post-stall bahavior, I have to accept it just as it is modeled in DCS - at least it's not a docile spin :-)

 

I remember how difficult it is to spin some gliders... The K21 is a good example... Cross-control technique is required, at least in the K21's I have flown with a pax.

 

The only aspect still absent from DCS's K4 simulation, under these circumstances, or under high speed / loads, is a sense of control forces increasing, but then, I do not have a FF controller, so, I can't say for sure they're not modeled...

 

"Power-off Spins In general, spins in the Bf 109K are uncomfortable, because of heavy oscillations. Occasionally, the left spin oscillations will dampen out after approximately three turns, but the right spin oscillations will not. When controls are applied to start a spin, the aircraft snaps one-half turn in the direction of the spin, with the nose dropping to near vertical. At the end of one turn, the nose rises to or above the horizon and the spin slows down, occasionally coming almost to a complete stop. The aircraft then snaps one-half turn with the nose dropping to 50-60 degrees below the horizon and continues as during the first turn. The force required to hold the controls in the spinning position is quite heavy, and some rudder buffet becomes noticeable. When controls are applied for recovery, the nose drops to a near vertical position and the spin speeds up and then stops in one to 1 and 1/4 turns. "


Edited by jcomm

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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I just took the Dora up and ran it thru the same routine I use teaching spins.

 

It entered a left power off spin, took ~3 turns to stabilize and I allowed it to spin 10 rotations to ensure it was well developed.

 

I used PARE to recover normally in three spins once controls were input.

 

Spins to the right were the same.

 

In summary, Power off behaviors seem just fine. In fact, they are excellent.

 

Power on was a little different.

 

Again, using the same routine I use to teach spins.

 

1. Safe Altitude

 

2. Reduce power and slow the aircraft wings level to just above the stall.

 

3. Add full power slowly and smoothly while pitching back to maintain airspeed loss

 

4. As the airplane begins to break, add full rudder to the direction you want to spin.

 

Recover using PARE.

To the Left, the Dora was pretty violent upon spin entry, almost inverting. It took 3 rotations to stabilize in a steep nose down position. The aircraft almost self recovered when spun power on to the left.

 

To the right, spin entry was more difficult and you had to time the rudder input exactly at the moment of stall. That is not necessarily unrealistic; some airplanes have a small sweet spot due to power effects. As a guess, it is probably due to the spiral slipstream modeling in the FM striking the left side of the tail. It is the same as adding rudder to counteract the wing drop.

The aircraft entered a spin is the same violent almost inverted manner. After 3 rotations it self recovered, again I think to the spiral slipstream modeling.

None of that is unrealistic.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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I can spin every warbird in DCS. Most of the time it is unintentional. Start dogfighting human opponents instead of looking for flaws and you will spin. I've even put the 109 and 190 into tail spins, yikes!:doh:

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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Should be not impossible but more difficult to enter the spin

 

The words "impossible to spin" never appear in my post for a reason, Kwaik.

 

It is possible to spin any aircraft under the right conditions. Much of it depends on CG location. In fact, at a forward CG many aircraft will not enter a spin because they will not enter a full aerodynamic stall.

 

The Forward CG limit is defined by elevator power required to lift the nose to flare on landing. Exceeding that limit also spin proofs the aircraft and some designs reaching the limit spin proofs the aircraft.

 

The LE slats make the Bf-109 more resistant to spins than an aircraft not equipped with LE slats. They do this by increasing high energy turbulent flow across the outboard sections. They outboard sections can then produce a higher angle attack than the inboard sections. The inboard sections reach critical angle of attack, stall, and the elevator can no longer provide enough control authority to lift the nose to increase angle of attack any further.

 

That is how it works.


Edited by Crumpp

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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For example CLOD have way much more realistic flight model for spin , stall ..from my point of view .

 

In CLOD you can pull the stick all the way back abruptly in a Spit, and you may get a little buffet, that's about it. In reality, this move leads to an immediate spin, in almost all ww2 aircraft.

The three best things in life are a good landing, a good orgasm, and a good bowel movement. The night carrier landing is one of the few opportunities in life to experience all three at the same time.

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For example CLOD have way much more realistic flight model for spin , stall ..from my point of view .

 

I disagree. None of the airplanes in CLoD act like their RL counterparts in the most basic stability and control characteristics.

 

In CLOD you can pull the stick all the way back abruptly in a Spit, and you may get a little buffet, that's about it.

12-30-2014 02:52 PM

 

Exactly. All you do is sit and shake. The angle of bank does not shallow at all. In reality, the buffet is caused by airflow separation and the wing cannot hold the angle of bank it was at with steady attached flow.

 

The RL Spitfire had a deep buffet zone and very harsh high energy buffet. So harsh it was impossible to hold the controls steady or aim a gunsight.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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In CLOD you can pull the stick all the way back abruptly in a Spit, and you may get a little buffet, that's about it. In reality, this move leads to an immediate spin, in almost all ww2 aircraft.

 

Then you fly a different version to me, it is easy to stall/spin the Spitfire in Cliffs.

 

 

The RL Spitfire had a deep buffet zone and very harsh high energy buffet. So harsh it was impossible to hold the controls steady or aim a gunsight.

 

Utter garbage embellished with your own speculation on how hard it is to aim through the gunsight.

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I just went and check it out in the Spitfire in CloD. The buffeting is a noise effect and the airplane can be pulled deep into the buffet zone. Only when the airspeed an aerodynamic stall occurs do the wings shallow the angle of bank.

 

It is pretty simple and not realistic. I think the game engine was abandoned for a reason.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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Utter garbage embellished with your own speculation on how hard it is to aim through the gunsight.

 

Actually it is a defined and quantifiable measurement based on the load factor induced during the aerodynamic buffet, bongodriver. The control comments come straight out of the NACA's investigation on the stalling characteristics of the Spitfire.

 

The stability and control characteristics are not stall and spin behaviors. It is the basics such as whether a design is static or dynamically neutral, stable or unstable. Again, a defined and quantifiable measurement.


Edited by Crumpp

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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Then you fly a different version to me, it is easy to stall/spin the Spitfire in Cliffs.

 

I don't want to turn this discussion into another sim's weaknesses thread, so i 'll just say this :

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=115453

 

"You think that Mk IX will make you an absolute winner?

I have bad news for those who consider P-51 too stick sensitive and thus prone to stall... smile.gif

As Spitfire has neutral stability there is only 3/4" of stick travel to stall as it was reported by NACA. Really silk hands or full scale joystick required... smile.gif

It will be no mercy, hardcore only - all will be as Mitchell designed."

 

The way elevator authority and subsequent changes in AoA are modelled in CLOD, seem to me way too benign to be true. When I flew either 109 or spit, i could pull up sharply by applying full elevator deflection, and almost never got an accelerated stall, unless the aircraft was *very* uncoordinated at the beginning of the pull. Stall and spins did happen frequently, but this had to do with the simulation making it too easy to fly at the limits of the envelope.

 

What Yo-Yo says about the Spit's characteristics is what any true sim should be modelling, and I 'm sure it will be like this when we get it in DCS.


Edited by airdoc

The three best things in life are a good landing, a good orgasm, and a good bowel movement. The night carrier landing is one of the few opportunities in life to experience all three at the same time.

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Problem is Yo-Yo refers to a NACA test on a MkV which was the worst Mk for CoG.

 

Anyway ED have more than enough real world Spitfire pilots (some of whom will have time on German counterparts) to validate the behaviours, most of them will find a Spitfire that is unpleasant to fly a bit odd.

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Actually it is a defined and quantifiable measurement based on the load factor induced during the aerodynamic buffet, bongodriver. The control comments come straight out of the NACA's investigation on the stalling characteristics of the Spitfire.

 

The stability and control characteristics are not stall and spin behaviors. It is the basics such as whether a design is static or dynamically neutral, stable or unstable. Again, a defined and quantifiable measurement.

 

There is nothing defined and quantifiable in speculation :lol:

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Anyway ED have more than enough real world Spitfire pilots (some of whom will have time on German counterparts) to validate the behaviours, most of them will find a Spitfire that is unpleasant to fly a bit odd.

 

Don't think Yo-Yo was saying it'll be unpleasant to fly just that you'll need to be smooth with the inputs which corresponds to the real one as far as I know.

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Don't think Yo-Yo was saying it'll be unpleasant to fly just that you'll need to be smooth with the inputs which corresponds to the real one as far as I know.

 

Not really, the characteristics are famously benign, most pilots saying the handling was almost care free, Mark Hanna said one would have to be crass to ignore the ample warning from the aircraft but some people are trying too hard to promote this idea that if you even look at the elevators funny the Spitfire flips out of control.

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