Unable to spin ...

[JST]

The direct quote is a small scroll up:

 

Really silk hands or full scale joystick required...

 

Even the Dora and K are nightmares with my TM 16000M, atleast with 100 y-axis saturation. I currently use 80 on both WITH curve but still took a while to get used to.

Edited December 30, 2014 by JST

[airdoc]

Not really, the characteristics are famously benign, most pilots saying the handling was almost care free, Mark Hanna said one would have to be crass to ignore the ample warning from the aircraft but some people are trying too hard to promote this idea that if you even look at the elevators funny the Spitfire flips out of control.

 

Nobody is arguing that the flying characteristics of the spitfire are not benign. Its exceptional handling abilities at the limits of the flight envelope are well documented.

 

But this does not mean that the spit would not flip out of control easily if the pilot would pull the elevator suddenly all the way back. "Benign flying characteristics" in this case would refer to the aircraft giving a more pronounced buffet warning with a wider margin of flying on the limit than another aircraft that would give minimal or no warning; thus, trained pilots were more likely to keep the elevators on a position that would not exceed the critical AoA and enter a stall/spin. This position however, is certainly not all the way aft, as in CLOD, otherwise the aircraft would almost never fall into accelerated stalls.

 

Don't get me wrong here, i like CLOD and what TF have done with it. It's just my view on the FM

Edited December 30, 2014 by airdoc

[Crumpp]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2276590#post2276590

 

Adult conversation is welcome. Seems to be lots of knowledge on these boards. We all want the high fidelity FM's Yo-Yo has produced to continue. Maybe, with the right attitudes, we can make his job easier.

[Kwiatek]

I don't want to turn this discussion into another sim's weaknesses thread, so i 'll just say this :

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=115453

 

"You think that Mk IX will make you an absolute winner?

I have bad news for those who consider P-51 too stick sensitive and thus prone to stall...

As Spitfire has neutral stability there is only 3/4" of stick travel to stall as it was reported by NACA. Really silk hands or full scale joystick required...

It will be no mercy, hardcore only - all will be as Mitchell designed."

 

The way elevator authority and subsequent changes in AoA are modelled in CLOD, seem to me way too benign to be true. When I flew either 109 or spit, i could pull up sharply by applying full elevator deflection, and almost never got an accelerated stall, unless the aircraft was *very* uncoordinated at the beginning of the pull. Stall and spins did happen frequently, but this had to do with the simulation making it too easy to fly at the limits of the envelope.

 

What Yo-Yo says about the Spit's characteristics is what any true sim should be modelling, and I 'm sure it will be like this when we get it in DCS.

 

 

From the same discussion

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=90079&d=1382782154

[Crumpp]

From the same discussion

 

The passage refers to lateral stability with gun ports closed.

 

That is the rolling axis and with guns ports closed, the aircraft did not exhibit a instability on the lateral axis. I do not think the passage is making any other statement about the stall characteristics outside of those terms.

 

"Violent" is not a definable term but I would guess it corresponds to moderate or severe under the NACA standard.

 

With moderate buffeting you can make the plane turn left or hold the wings level...you just are going to have an impossible time turning left to a specific heading or holding a specific altitude.

 

Precision tracking maybe impossible under moderate buffeting.

 

Severe buffeting is extremely uncomfortable and human physiology allows only a few minutes exposure to the load factor changes for most people. Think of shaken baby syndrome as severe buffeting. While an adult won't have their neck snapped, they will not be happy with the treatment either.

 

Control is restricted at severe buffeting if not impossible.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Crumpp
Edited for clarity

[airdoc]

From the same discussion

 

Yes, if you see the reference I made in the other thread about fig. 17, buffet seems to start at about 5 degrees of elevator up deflection, and the pilot keeps it on the verge of stalling still at 10 degrees (out of a max of 20 degrees).

 

I think that this is what the document refers to as "relatively far back after initial stall flow breakdown", which would be about 50-60% of full deflection.

Edited December 30, 2014 by airdoc

[Crumpp]

Yes, if you see the reference I made in the other thread about fig. 17, buffet seems to start at about 5 degrees of elevator up deflection, and the pilot keeps it on the verge of stalling still at 10 degrees (out of a max of 20 degrees).

 

I think that this is what the document refers to as "relatively far back after initial stall flow breakdown", which would be about 50-60% of full deflection.

 

The language sometimes gets in the way!! The NACA had just established a standard which prompted all these flying qualities investigations.

 

It was still new and I don't think the whole organization was on the same page when it comes to the specific terms.

[jpdesvals]

Hello again for information my version of CLOD is the last ATAG version and yes in this version with the spit if you pull hard back at low speed with a little bit rudder you enter a spin for shure easier on right side .

 

I will try this evening to enter a spin with the 109 as describ with full power with right rudder .

 

When some of you explain that you can make 10 turn si i am realy thinking that i have not the same version of the game .. But it s the last update .

 

I have the sensation of an arcade game exept take off and landings ...

[SlipBall]

Hello again for information my version of CLOD is the last ATAG version and yes in this version with the spit if you pull hard back at low speed with a little bit rudder you enter a spin for shure easier on right side .

 

I will try this evening to enter a spin with the 109 as describ with full power with right rudder .

 

When some of you explain that you can make 10 turn si i am realy thinking that i have not the same version of the game .. But it s the last update .

 

I have the sensation of an arcade game exept take off and landings ...

 

 

 

You cannot compare the 109 here to the CLOD 109...The COD game is 'balanced' for on-line competition(109 not being very true to real life). So your word "arcade" would really in fairness, apply to the CLOD FM's...

 

I think here in DCS the 109 needs to be given some rudder authority for the on the ground use of. Also the suspension seems overly stiff, and should be toned down in IMHO.

Edited December 31, 2014 by GT 5.0

[Kwiatek]

I think DCS prop planes got very nice stall symptoms ( stick shake, control surface bufffeting) and stricte stall is nicely done. But i think also that after that there is some lack of spin behaviour. Even in deep stall there is really hard to get into spin. I tried Fw 190 D-9 again and yes it could do quite good spins with cross control power off but other hand in hard turns or manouvering it could only stall there is no spin tendency even with full stick back in stall turns. IRL Fw 190 was known that in hard turns it was prone to get spin which pilot often used to shake enemy from tail. In DCS Fw 190 seemed to me too easy in such hard manouvers. I really dont need to care about spin.

 

If we compare to BOS or CLOD there is no possible to fly such way without a spin like we could do in DCS.

[Crumpp]

I think DCS prop planes got very nice stall symptoms ( stick shake, control surface bufffeting) and stricte stall is nicely done. But i think also that after that there is some lack of spin behaviour. Even in deep stall there is really hard to get into spin. I tried Fw 190 D-9 again and yes it could do quite good spins with cross control power off but other hand in hard turns or manouvering it could only stall there is no spin tendency even with full stick back in stall turns. IRL Fw 190 was known that in hard turns it was prone to get spin which pilot often used to shake enemy from tail. In DCS Fw 190 seemed to me too easy in such hard manouvers. I really dont need to care about spin.

 

If we compare to BOS or CLOD there is no possible to fly such way without a spin like we could do in DCS.

 

With the ailerons properly adjusted according the Flugzueg Handbuch, it shouldn't spin unless you pull really hard above Va where aero elasticity will cause this behavior.

 

IIRC, a Luftwaffe veteran and experienced Dora pilot flew DCS version. I am sure his insight has been valuable.

[chn6]

up!