Cost per module

[_Acoustic_]

Anyone have a remote idea about the cost of an individual module either by ED or 3rd party?

 

:music_whistling:

[Sabre-TLA]

This page has some good cost references. :megalol:

[_Acoustic_]

Lol, thats what I'm trying to figure out. $50 seems like the highest amount for an individual module.

 

You'd have to clear 10,000 modules sold to equal $500,000... then who knows what the take home of all that is after expense are met. I guess I'm just trying to get an idea about what the total cost for a DCS/3rd party module for DCS is. I know this is a loaded question or can't really be answered but if one had throw away money and wanted to see a module be developed where would they go to get this info? Or as a community, if enough money was raised for a single module, what would that goal be?

[emg]

They said 120k $ to develop the 109 FM alone, and estimated 150k total for the module. Modern planes have much more complex systems to model.

[_Acoustic_]

Excellent. Thanks for the response. I was figuring 500k so I'm probably close to an advanced model.

[Vedexent]

You could try "reverse engineering" a number.

 

• Look at the 3rd party development teams.
  
• Figure out how big they are
  
• Figure out where they are
  
• Figure out the various roles in their organization (programmer, modeller, graphics artist, etc.).
  
• Figure out approximate market averages for annual salaries for those roles, in those markets.
  
• Figure out the amount of time it takes to develop a module.
  
• Multiply out the total "yearly salary load" by the number of years it takes to develop a module.
  
• Add a margin for tools, licensing, overhead, offices, coffee service, donuts, etc. - not all will apply. Some companies might have a brick and mortar office; some may just be an Internet Association.
  
• Dividing by another "factor" if they have multiple projects on the go. E.g. Belsimtek probably doesn't need totally separate teams for each project - there's likely a lot of personnel spread over multiple projects.
  

Also - in figuring out yearly salaries - people might have a regular "day job", so the salary figure might not be as high for them - but they would be less effective as they can't give all their effort to a project.

 

It's an approach - but it's not an easy one, and I have no idea what kind of results you're likely to get.

 

OR

 

You could ask some of the 3rd party teams very nicely - but I don't think they're likely to tell you :)

[_Acoustic_]

Thanks Ved, yeah I figured its a number that isn't publicly known for good reason but just wanted to get an idea about what it would take to get more and more modules flowing.

 

DCS WWII grabbed roughly 160k from again, roughly 2500 backers. A lot of money from a small amount of backers.

 

This forum alone has 56,000+ members. Just crunching numbers here, not trying to spark a debate about promises and failed promises so hopefully it stays that way but if we all figured $10.00 US for each agreed upon module, there would be more than enough money to create what we all seem to want after reading most of the posts around here (Again, sorry but I am new to this particular forum so I hope I'm not stirring the pot).

 

I'd gladly back $10 on 5 projects I could care less on if it meant I got one project I was desperately wanting to happen. $60 bucks on 6 projects is perfectly fine in my eyes even if I only end up buying and paying for the additional module I actually want... $30-50 on top of the kickstarter funds. Shit, I spend that type of money in a couple weeks at the bar! I'd venture a guess that most of us probably spend the equivalent to that a month in entertainment in some fashion.

 

If a kickstarter is made for certain aircraft how would one go about creating that? Obviously it would have to have the backing of ED or a licensed 3rd party but individual models seem like they could be attainable as long as enough money is raised. 56k members here alone is pretty eye opening.

 

I for one would easily spend $100 on certain aircraft not even wanting any special treatment... ie just to see it under development and finished in a reasonable time frame. So after that fact spend another $50 for the module.

 

:pilotfly:

Edited January 26, 2015 by ♠_Acoustic_♠

[Vedexent]

Figuring out how to start a Kickstarter campaign probably isn't that hard - although given the controversy over the WWII Kickstarter program, you may find some reluctance in the community to go down that path - and we're not going to discuss whether that's legitimate or not, OK?

 

The hard part is finding the development team. While I've never worked in that kind of software (I'm more in the B2B data exchange side), it's my understanding that's it's a fairly small pool of people that have that kind of programming experience.

 

Another really hard part is finding a suitable development candidate. Sure, some people would love to see an F-35 - but good luck getting reliable hard system data! That's why we've seen mostly older aircraft which have been declassified, or we've seen "spill over" from Eagle Dynamics military contracts (like the A-10C).

 

So, you need to find that 'sweet spot' of an aircraft with lots of reliable published technical data, a good development team, enough community interest to make the module financially viable, and enough backing capital.

 

That's assuming you're looking to put together a development team from scratch.

 

Here's a weird suggestion - maybe some of the third party developers are "bribe-able" - "Hey, Leatherneck Studios, here's $500k of Kickstarter money. Build us a MiG-28!" :lol:

[_Acoustic_]

Here's a weird suggestion - maybe some of the third party developers are "bribe-able" - "Hey, Leatherneck Studios, here's $500k of Kickstarter money. Build us a MiG-28!" :lol:

 

This is what I'm talking about.

 

Lets take for instance an A-1 Skyraider. Enough info out there to create a module, no speedbumps in that department. Of the 56k members of this forum, I'd assume there would be some interest from 5k of them... (a little more than 10% of this community).

 

$10 from everyone in just this community would easily pay for that ($560k). Even if I had zero interest for that aircraft $10 is a 6-pack of Dales Pale Ale (good beer!). Especially if I have an aircraft I would pay much more for is on the horizon...

 

I.e., Say a 3rd party developer created a poll of X amount of planes to be voted on. In the next 2 years, the top 4 will be made as long as each are backed and those $$ goals are met. Even if the plane you voted for wasn't in the top 4, the numbers would still be enough to garnish support since the top 4 would be selected. Even if I hated the top 3 planes and knew I wouldnt even consider buying them, I would still back them if it meant I'd get that 4th plane which is something that sparked my interest.

 

I guess I just view the consumer in the flight simulator genre as in a position to really change things for the better, but it takes the community working together rather than opposing to get that done.

 

It is quite interesting to think about.

 

(Being part of a mod team for a WWII combat flight simulator that is 100% volunteer I know the sheer amount of work that is involved in so many departments... its mind boggling and I do not take this lightly, I just see a potential avenue to make the majority happy but its hard to garnish that support for some reason).

 

I'd back 30 projects if it meant number 30 was the plane I always wanted in such a sim as DCS. $300 plus whichever modules I wanted is still a bargain for what we get IMO.

 

The only issue with this is I see the old "fool me once..." thing. I wonder if there is a way to legally bind the funds to go to the project at hand rather then just to the company? Even with room set for "unseen" hiccups I think the ballpark number to create a DCS module has been figured out by now.

Edited January 26, 2015 by ♠_Acoustic_♠

[Wolf Rider]

we've had enough from "government" of "its only a cup of coffee, or its only the cost of a milkshake or a burger, for anything along those lines from civilian street to offer up to come across as genuine

[Roadrunner]

one should take into account, that the first module is always the one with the greatest workload.

 

for one the obvious learning that needs to be done, how will that or this work within the sim, etc.

 

in a second module, you might not have to create all from start, you might have a altimeter i.e. that is used in two or more aircrafts, so no new 3d model needed hopefully, and the code behind it can be reused as well, or at least parts of it.

 

same for ED and the hornet: they create a whole new air2ground radar system, when this is done, it must not be created again for another aircraft, although there might be some tweaks to it for one special aircraft.

 

so calculating the price for a module is not simple, but i gets less expensive the more modules get created.

 

of course, the first module is the most expensive, even more if you see the need to create parts in a way that they can be used in other aircrafts as well. much planing needed ;)

[TracerFacer]

I would would pay much more.. Willingly... If the products produced were not in beta stages forever or the current features are at least working as advertised...

 

When I found DCS.. I bought a few modules.. Play two of them the most.. I then dropped 2k on hardware to get the game playing the way I want... 2k! What is the price of a module compared to that? And I'll be doing it again in a year or two.

 

I could care less really about the price of the modules. It's nothing compared to the cost of the hardware used to play them.

 

Produce high quality software.. And I will happily pay you...

 

As it stands now.. I'm holding on to my wallet until the products I do own.. Work as advertised.

[dartuil]

If razbam need money I can give 1000$ per month if they need.

But only if they need to focus on Mirage. :)

[_Acoustic_]

Interesting topic for sure, lots of things at play. I do understand the bitten once mindset but I do try to give the benefit of the doubt when possible.

 

Yes, the first modules should be the most expensive since proceeding modules/things/parts can be reused with minor adjustments and a blueprint has been created on when/what/where/why/how.

 

@Tracerfacer, understandable and makes sense. Thats why this topic is of interest of me, the combat flight simulator is beyond a small niche market. Without people like you (and the rest here) there would be no combat flight genre. I view this as a good and bad thing. People are more than willing to pay extreme amounts on single aircraft and hardware to get the best experience yet we have just enough say in the process that we keep chasing and hoping for the best. We the consumer in such a small market should be neck deep involved in the process. Instead of throwing money at a kickstarter for X aircraft, it should be like a giant contract. We are doing this, to this standard, in this time frame, for this amount. It will include __. Period.

 

So much is lost in secrecy and dishonest goals/wants.

 

One can wish. ;)

 

 

If razbam need money I can give 1000$ per month if they need.

But only if they need to focus on Mirage. :)

 

This is interesting and is what got me thinking about the topic in the first place. Would you feel the same if there was a list of what aircrafts were being worked on and completed in the order stated, so say X, Y, Z, Mirage. So in the next two years, we are 100% guaranteed to our standards that X, Y, Z and the Mirage will be delivered in that order. No questions or delays.

 

Do you still stand by your above statement? Even though its not the first on the list but you will get it. Are you willing to pay for X Y and Z regardless of what they are inorder to get your Mirage?

 

I for one would be, like stated in my last post. If we all had that mindset as a community and small niche consumer, we could get most of what we want. Now getting companies on this is why I said "one can wish" but I think we should have this discussion, you never know who is watching and taking notes. I think we have more power then we think but only if we worked together.

 

Out of the four aircraft above, if just one of the four garnished support and interest from say 20,000 people around the globe, all of who gave $100 for the 4 aircraft because they really want the one aircraft, that is $2 million, which would be plenty. Then you take another 20,000 who are interested in a different one of the 4 who have the same mindset, well you see where this could go. Picking those aircraft would be the tricky thing but a consumer/company relationship like this would benefit everyone and all the aircraft we could imagine could be built over time with something like this implemented.

 

Profit and growth for both sides albeit in different ways.

 

Interesting indeed.

Edited January 26, 2015 by ♠_Acoustic_♠

[dartuil]

I will pay for X Y Z ,mirage if XYZ are able to fight atleast the mig-21.

In fact i will pay for anything going at more than mach 1 and that is devloped first on DCS and after in FSX(dont care if its DCS only).

If XYZ ,mirage is for DCS I pay no question I will pay for all these aircrafts,just give me your paypal RAZBAM. :)

Edited January 27, 2015 by dartuil

[Darkwolf]

Only straight number you can get is to make an order as soon as a module is released, and make another order the day after. Check orders number and you'll have a small idea of the day 1 sales.

HArd to extrapolate total sales from tehre, tho.

[jaydee]

Interesting topic for sure, lots of things at play. I do understand the bitten once mindset but I do try to give the benefit of the doubt when possible.

 

Yes, the first modules should be the most expensive since proceeding modules/things/parts can be reused with minor adjustments and a blueprint has been created on when/what/where/why/how.

 

@Tracerfacer, understandable and makes sense. Thats why this topic is of interest of me, the combat flight simulator is beyond a small niche market. Without people like you (and the rest here) there would be no combat flight genre. I view this as a good and bad thing. People are more than willing to pay extreme amounts on single aircraft and hardware to get the best experience yet we have just enough say in the process that we keep chasing and hoping for the best. We the consumer in such a small market should be neck deep involved in the process. Instead of throwing money at a kickstarter for X aircraft, it should be like a giant contract. We are doing this, to this standard, in this time frame, for this amount. It will include __. Period.

 

So much is lost in secrecy and dishonest goals/wants.

 

One can wish. ;)

 

 

 

 

This is interesting and is what got me thinking about the topic in the first place. Would you feel the same if there was a list of what aircrafts were being worked on and completed in the order stated, so say X, Y, Z, Mirage. So in the next two years, we are 100% guaranteed to our standards that X, Y, Z and the Mirage will be delivered in that order. No questions or delays.

 

Do you still stand by your above statement? Even though its not the first on the list but you will get it. Are you willing to pay for X Y and Z regardless of what they are inorder to get your Mirage?

 

I for one would be, like stated in my last post. If we all had that mindset as a community and small niche consumer, we could get most of what we want. Now getting companies on this is why I said "one can wish" but I think we should have this discussion, you never know who is watching and taking notes. I think we have more power then we think but only if we worked together.

 

Out of the four aircraft above, if just one of the four garnished support and interest from say 20,000 people around the globe, all of who gave $100 for the 4 aircraft because they really want the one aircraft, that is $2 million, which would be plenty. Then you take another 20,000 who are interested in a different one of the 4 who have the same mindset, well you see where this could go. Picking those aircraft would be the tricky thing but a consumer/company relationship like this would benefit everyone and all the aircraft we could imagine could be built over time with something like this implemented.

 

Profit and growth for both sides albeit in different ways.

 

Interesting indeed.

Great topic Acoustic !

Recently I read some Forum Topics about what Simmers Want. They want the F-18, F-16,F-14,F104,B17,Mirage just to name a few. They want the correct Battle-Fleets with Carrier "X" and Destroyer "Y" included.

They want a FW 190 F instead of the Dora. They want an Edge(or Hormuz) Map that has to be real and accurate, for that timeframe !

I am one of those People (not in every respect) !

Recently I made a Post about a great Magazine I stumbled upon. I thought, I would share it here on the forums. It had 120(great ) pages dedicated to the story of the FW 190 . I paid AU$20 for it. Worth every Cent !

No sooner had I made the post, when some Lowlife Grub (IMHO) posted a Link to Download it for Free..... So everyone downloads it for Free,the Magazine doesnt sell and goes out of buisness ! Well Done Grub , you saved a few Bucks !

Imagine Posting " I Know how to Download all DCS Modules for Free"....

My simple response to this Topic is : I know my Hobby or Passion for "Playing Pilot Behind PC " is not exactly "Mainstream" behaviour thesedays.

So I realise, I must Pay for what I want !

~S~

[rajdary]

My simple response to this Topic is : I know my Hobby or Passion for "Playing Pilot Behind PC " is not exactly "Mainstream" behaviour thesedays.

So I realise, I must Pay for what I want !

~S~

Exactly!! That is why i wouldnt be surprised if the DCS:F-18 module , which will be out "soon" , will cost 99$ instead of the 49$ that other modules cost and the DCS:Eurofighter and similar modules could also follow.

[fastfreddie]

Exactly!! That is why i wouldnt be surprised if the DCS:F-18 module , which will be out "soon" , will cost 99$ instead of the 49$ that other modules cost and the DCS:Eurofighter and similar modules could also follow.

 

Current pricing would probably be fine if they didn't reduce the prices so quickly on these modules. You see titles only released a couple of months on sale for 40% off and they drop even more a short time after that. I'm sure they move more modules that way but it creates a climate where people who would of bought it day one just wait alittle while instead. I know I'll wait till the Spitfire goes on sale since it was one of the keys I lost in the WWII screw up.

[jaydee]

Current pricing would probably be fine if they didn't reduce the prices so quickly on these modules. You see titles only released a couple of months on sale for 40% off and they drop even more a short time after that. I'm sure they move more modules that way but it creates a climate where people who would of bought it day one just wait alittle while instead. I know I'll wait till the Spitfire goes on sale since it was one of the keys I lost in the WWII screw up.

Hi FF. I am a tradesman and know nothing of Economics.....But why does any Buisness have a "Sale" ?

Does apple have to have a "Sale" when releasing a new I-phone ? ..No ,people camp out all night to buy it !

A "Sale" (IMHO) is only to Sell a Product that is not selling well enough and /or to attract some new customers.

I would Love to to see the the day when "DCS" doesn't need to have a "Sale" to raise cash.

Freddie,(IMHO) flightsimmers can be a bunch of Demanding,Arrogant and opinionated people youll ever meet. We are a TINY community that want so much...And Some Want all this for $50 .....Did I mention "Indignation" ?

That's what I will get after this Post !

~S~

[fastfreddie]

Hi FF. I am a tradesman and know nothing of Economics.....But why does any Buisness have a "Sale" ?

Does apple have to have a "Sale" when releasing a new I-phone ? ..No ,people camp out all night to buy it !

A "Sale" (IMHO) is only to Sell a Product that is not selling well enough and /or to attract some new customers.

I would Love to to see the the day when "DCS" doesn't need to have a "Sale" to raise cash.

Freddie,(IMHO) flightsimmers can be a bunch of Demanding,Arrogant and opinionated people youll ever meet. We are a TINY community that want so much...And Some Want all this for $50 .....Did I mention "Indignation" ?

That's what I will get after this Post !

~S~

 

I worked in a small business retail environment for 13 years and when items went on sale or had reduced prices it was because of seasonal purpose of the goods or inventory turn over typically. DCS doesn't necessarily have the same business model because their product doesn't change or have these restrictions. The company I worked for struggled after the "great recession" and started offering discounts all the time with deeper cuts later to drive business. Customers started to expect these discounts even when the economy improved and some only showed up when the biggest sales came around. Well reduced margins with higher cost of doing business (rent/utilities/cost of goods) sent us packing in 2013 and I've seen what devaluing your product/services can do with constant sales. Just hope DCS doesn't fall into the same problems we faced offering flash sales or other types so often.

[Drewa]

Third party developers really should ask the community what they want. Instead of just deciding to make a module they should say "Hey, we have the data and capabilities to make an *aircraft* or *aircraft*..... which one would you be most likely to buy?